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Author Topic: Is Jesus Christ Eternal  (Read 1354 times)

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2022, 12:03:44 PM »

Of course there is no way to know…but the fact that The Word (Yahweh) DID give up His immortality for 33 years really raises questions.

Once more this is clearly talking about God the Father:

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God and Jesus were together before the earth was created. But before Christ walked this earth only God the Father had immortality.

Jesus DID NOT give up His immortality because He did not have immortality until He was given it after he died and was raised. He never had it to give before then.

Also:

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 
and
Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

After we are "born again" we too will have immortality.
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indianabob

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2022, 01:21:41 PM »

DEar Dennis,
I will need to study this question further.
Thanks for the additional information.
Bob  :D



Of course there is no way to know…but the fact that The Word (Yahweh) DID give up His immortality for 33 years really raises questions.

Once more this is clearly talking about God the Father:

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God and Jesus were together before the earth was created. But before Christ walked this earth only God the Father had immortality.

Jesus DID NOT give up His immortality because He did not have immortality until He was given it after he died and was raised. He never had it to give before then.

Also:

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
and
Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

After we are "born again" we too will have immortality.
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Dynamo54

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2022, 03:01:18 PM »

Dennis, thank you for your response. This is a hard one to me it seems, at least to the definition of immortal.  The Word was with the Father for billions or trillions of years before man came on the scene, and before Christ was born.  I viewed immortal as being not able to die once you are created/born. I understand that the Word was not eternal ( I.e., having no beginning) as is the Father, but once created spirit I thought he was everlasting (To me that means immortal).
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The Eternal, He is God!

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2022, 05:13:35 PM »

Dennis, thank you for your response. This is a hard one to me it seems, at least to the definition of immortal.  The Word was with the Father for billions or trillions of years before man came on the scene, and before Christ was born.  I viewed immortal as being not able to die once you are created/born. I understand that the Word was not eternal ( I.e., having no beginning) as is the Father, but once created spirit I thought he was everlasting (To me that means immortal).

Maybe this will help?

"immortality" G110 - ἀθανασία - athanasia - ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.
Total KJV occurrences: 3

Ray talking - From https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,12896.msg113269.html#msg113269

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!
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Anjel Uriel

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2022, 08:41:35 PM »


However, when we look at Scriptures when referring to Christ as the only-begotten Son of God, the Greek word is different to when referring to us being begotten by God. The word used for us is 1080. gennaó and it means to beget, to bring forth, etc. But, the word for Christ is 3439. monogenés and it means properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

So this let us know that let us know that in a way our sonship and Christ’s are different. If I’m not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father.

It's the "mono" part of this compound word that adds the distinction to the same word.  I take that to mean He is the only begotten...the only one of the begotten kind, if you like.  We're not yet begotten.  Nobody has followed Him completely, even if they themselves were crucified.  Jesus wasn't lying when He said, "You must be born again (born from above)", though my old evangelical friends don't understand it yet.

Hi Dave, I would argue that if the Greek word translated as begotten means both conceived and born then I would say that God’s Saints are in the middle stage of the process. John told us that we already are God’s Children but we still are not yet as we will be when Christ Returns. I believe that means that we are all basically spiritual fetuses. Yes, we have been conceived, yes, we are God’s Children now, but we are still in the spiritual womb if we’re to liken it to human terms.

We are still developing and growing until Christ returns and that would be when we would go from being in the womb to actually being born and therefore, receiving our inheritance with Christ. Christ said “unless you be born again you can’t enter The Kingdom of God”, then later He says “Unless you be born again, you can’t see the Kingdom of God”. Ray said that he believed that first born should be translated as conceived and I agree with him. We are first conceived, and gain the privilege of entering the Kingdom, we mature as a baby does in the womb, and then we are born or like Paul said “Manifested” on Christ Return and then we will be able to see The Kingdom because we will no longer be flesh but spirit like Him. I take it like you said that Christ is the only one of the begotten kind, He’s the only Son of God that’s actually been conceived, born and matured. He’s a finished work, we are still just in the conceived part and a work in progress.
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The LORD answered, "Could a mother forget a child who nurses at her breast? Could she fail to love an infant who came from her own body? Even if a mother could forget, I will never forget you. Isaiah 49:15

Anjel Uriel

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Re: Is Jesus Christ Eternal
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2022, 09:00:42 PM »

Anjel,
I like your comment copied below with one difference, perhaps in wording.
Father GOD the self existent one created Christ to be GOD's agent through whom GOD would create the rest of the celestial and terrestrial creation. All according to Father God's plan and beginning with the heavenly creation and then the earthly creation, each in the proper order. First the heaven of God and then the material Earth. Gen 1:1
This process was overseen by son God (eloheem H430) or Christ and his "devine" helpers.
Much more to consider but start with the following verses.
= =
► Jesus Christ existed before Abraham (John 8:58),
► He had a glory with the Father before the world
came to be (John 17:5)
► He would ascend to where He was formerly (John
6:62)
► All is created in Him, through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
► He is the Firstborn of every creature (Colossians
1:15)
► Apart from Him not even one thing came into
being which has come into being (John 1:3)
► He made the eons (Hebrews 1:3)
► He emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave,
coming to be in the likeness of humanity (Philippians
2:7)


I know The Father brought forth Christ and I always took it as that He gave birth to Him. There was a time when The Father alone existed and He then created Christ by bringing Him forth. Well, I’ve been seeing old posts of people here and I’m getting kinda confused. Basically, it seems some old posters basically believed in a form of Binitarianism, that is, Christ always existed with God The Father and it’s co-eternal and that Christ can’t be created because we worship Him. So is there Scriptures that prove Christ is always existed?

My point of view (which I made a whole post about where IndiBob and Dave responded) is this:

God The Father was always existed. He then decided to create a Divine Being that would be His Representative to Humanity, so He did this by begetting a Son and that Son is The Very First Creation of His Father. I saw things along the lines of “How can Christ be be created if He’s worshipped, He’s begotten of God not created”.

But, aren’t we also both created and begotten of God? We are created because there’s a time we didn’t exist but we are begotten because God is our Father and lives in us and whatever someone does to us, they do it to God.

My reason for why Christ can be both created and still worshipped is because He represents His Father perfectly. For example, Christ will judge the world for how they treats us because whatever they do to us is the exact same as doing to Him, because we represent Him. Therefore, even though Christ was created, because He’s the very first creation and the begotten Son of God who represents Him perfectly, then He can be worshipped because worship to Christ is the same as worship to His Father.

Let me know what you all think cause I’ve been wrestling with this for the last week.

Hi Bob, I agree that maybe I should have worded it in a different way. Christ is not only The Representative of God to Humanity but also The Creator. It’s like Paul said “Out of God through Christ”. We know of verses where The Son is said to be The Creator but also of others where The Father is said to be The Creator. We know Jesus is The Jehovah of The Old Testament because He was seen and talked to and nobody has seen or spoken to The Father yet there’s a scripture where it talks about “The God of our Father” and it’s referring to The Father.

 It’s like Ray said in an audio something along the lines of: “who did the creating? The Father or Son? They both did it because They Both are The One Elohim, The Father is The Father Elohim and The Son is The Jehovah Elohim, you can’t separate them because The Son is The Spokesperson”.

I see it like this: Suppose my father (Angel) gives me (Anjel) $20 and tells me “son go buy food for us” so he sends me to the store and I buy food. Then when I return and my siblings ask “who bought the food?” I would reply “our father did” because even though I was the one who went to the store and paid, My father was the one who gave me the plan, resources and ability to carry it out. So the father Angel did the buying through his son Anjel and that’s the analogy I thought of when thinking how it was that The Father did the creating through His Son. He gave all He has to His Son including The Power to accomplish his Will and then let Him know it was His Will that The Creation happened and since Christ always does what pleases His Father, He created everything.

Also, I hadn’t considered that after The Son created The Spiritual World (The Heavens) that He would be accompanied by the Angels while He went on to create the physical world but there is Scripture in Job 38 that when The Foundations of The Earth were laid down, The Angels shouted for joy. You gave me something to new to consider  ;D
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The LORD answered, "Could a mother forget a child who nurses at her breast? Could she fail to love an infant who came from her own body? Even if a mother could forget, I will never forget you. Isaiah 49:15
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