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Author Topic: Democracy  (Read 546 times)

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lareli

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Democracy
« on: November 09, 2022, 02:39:54 PM »

Hello, I’m trying to find examples of democracy or majority rule in the scriptures, more specifically ‘righteous’ examples but all I can think of are instances such as in 1 Sam 8 where Israel collectively demanded a King - or when the people collectively called for Barrabas release and Christs crucifixion.

Any examples would be appreciated

Thanks
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Rene

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2022, 12:47:59 PM »

If anyone decides to respond to this thread, please refrain from commenting on your political beliefs in adherence to the Forum Rule of NO POLITICS.

 
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octoberose

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2022, 02:49:46 AM »

As was attempted before - there are no examples of democracy in Scripture.  There are Kings and theocracy .  One could argue there were dictators . Democracy is mans attempt for equitable government. I’m not sure it achieves that. Won’t it be nice when we don’t have to think about such things ever again ?
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indianabob

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2022, 11:33:44 AM »

As was attempted before - there are no examples of democracy in Scripture.  There are Kings and theocracy .  One could argue there were dictators . Democracy is mans attempt for equitable government. I’m not sure it achieves that. Won’t it be nice when we don’t have to think about such things ever again ?

Much better stated than my thoughts.
Thank you Octoberose for your contribution.
Indiana Bob
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lareli

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2022, 06:07:35 PM »

As was attempted before - there are no examples of democracy in Scripture.  There are Kings and theocracy .  One could argue there were dictators . Democracy is mans attempt for equitable government. I’m not sure it achieves that. Won’t it be nice when we don’t have to think about such things ever again ?

Maybe ‘democracy’ was the wrong word for what I’m looking for. The word implies government and I know there are no examples of democratic government, but I don’t know what else to call it.. crowd rule or majority rule maybe. There are instances of this in scripture but the only instances that I can think of are rejections of God as the examples I already mentioned where Israel demanded a king and where the people called for Christs death. Both instances describe individuals who united as one body and with one voice said ‘give us a king’ or ‘crucify! crucify!’ fundamentally achieving their desire through a majority rule.

The question I’ve had is, is there any example in scripture where people united as one body and one voice apart from the body of Christ to achieve something that wasn’t a rejection of God? Or another way to look at it could be the many and the few. Are there any examples of ‘the many’ imposing their desires over ‘the few’ in any way that wasn’t opposed to God as was the case in the two examples already stated..
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2022, 07:16:33 PM »

This came to mind:

Israel Demands a King

1Sa 8:1  And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he appointed his sons judges to Israel;
1Sa 8:2  and the name of his firstborn son was, Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah,—they were judges in Beer-sheba.
1Sa 8:3  Howbeit his sons walked not in his ways, but stooped to extortion,—and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
1Sa 8:4  So then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together,—and came unto Samuel, to Ramah;
1Sa 8:5  and said unto him—Lo! thou, art old, and, thy sons, walk not in thy ways: Now, appoint for us a king to judge us, like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6  But the thing was displeasing in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give unto us a king to judge us. So Samuel prayed unto Yahweh.
1Sa 8:7  And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people, in all that they shall say unto thee,—for, not thee, have they rejected, but, me, have they rejected, from being king over them.
1Sa 8:8  According to all the doings which they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt, even until this day, in that they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so, are they doing even unto thee.
1Sa 8:9  Now, therefore, hearken to their voice,—save that thou, enter protest, against them, and tell them the manner of the king who will reign over them.

Samuel's Warning Against Kings

1Sa 8:10  So then Samuel spake all the words of Yahweh unto the people, who were asking of him, a king.
1Sa 8:11  And he said, This, will be the manner of the king who will reign over you,—Your sons, will he take and appoint for himself, as his charioteers and as his horsemen, and they shall run before his chariots;
1Sa 8:12  and he will appoint for himself, princes of thousands, and princes of fifties,—and to plough his fields, and to reap his harvest, and to make his weapons of war, and the instruments of his chariots;
1Sa 8:13  And, your daughters, will he take,—as perfumers and as cooks, and as bakers;
1Sa 8:14  And, your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, the best of them, will he take, and give to his servants;
1Sa 8:15  And, your seed, and your vineyards, will he tithe, and give to his courtiers and to his servants;
1Sa 8:16  And, your men-servants, and your maidservants, and your oxen, even the goodliest, and your asses, will he take,—and put them to his work;
1Sa 8:17  Your flocks, will he tithe,—and, ye yourselves, shall become his servants.
1Sa 8:18  Then will ye make outcry, in that day, because of your king whom ye have chosen for yourselves,—and Yahweh will not answer you, in that day.

The Lord Grants Israel's Request

1Sa 8:19  But the people refused to hearken unto the voice of Samuel,—and they said—Nay! but, a king, shall be over us:
1Sa 8:20  so shall, even we, become like all the nations,—and our king shall judge us, and go forth before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 8:21  And Samuel heard all the words of the people,—and spake them in the ears of Yahweh.
1Sa 8:22  And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel: Go ye, every man to his own city.

Any government man creates will quickly become corrupt IMO.

There will never be a truly successful government apart from God - We are all here to learn about good and evil: https://youtu.be/7nJ99uodoXY
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octoberose

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2022, 12:43:38 AM »

OH MY Goodness, I’m so behind.  I didn’t know about the you tube video with  Ray that you interposed with Jordan Peterson.  When did that happen ?  its very well done- thank you Dennis !
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2022, 10:01:16 AM »

Video was published on May 27, 2021 - And more than a dozen new and revised videos since then.
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ralph

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2022, 02:25:50 PM »

Video was published on May 27, 2021 - And more than a dozen new and revised videos since then.

I visit the Youtube channel often Dennis. I listen to those precious video again and again and pick up something new each time.  I am grateful for all that you do bro. 
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2022, 08:25:49 PM »

Me too - I hear new things all the time

Thanks
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lareli

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2022, 12:09:56 PM »

This came to mind:

Israel Demands a King

1Sa 8:1  And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he appointed his sons judges to Israel;
1Sa 8:2  and the name of his firstborn son was, Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah,—they were judges in Beer-sheba.
1Sa 8:3  Howbeit his sons walked not in his ways, but stooped to extortion,—and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
1Sa 8:4  So then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together,—and came unto Samuel, to Ramah;
1Sa 8:5  and said unto him—Lo! thou, art old, and, thy sons, walk not in thy ways: Now, appoint for us a king to judge us, like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6  But the thing was displeasing in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give unto us a king to judge us. So Samuel prayed unto Yahweh.
1Sa 8:7  And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people, in all that they shall say unto thee,—for, not thee, have they rejected, but, me, have they rejected, from being king over them.
1Sa 8:8  According to all the doings which they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt, even until this day, in that they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so, are they doing even unto thee.
1Sa 8:9  Now, therefore, hearken to their voice,—save that thou, enter protest, against them, and tell them the manner of the king who will reign over them.

Samuel's Warning Against Kings

1Sa 8:10  So then Samuel spake all the words of Yahweh unto the people, who were asking of him, a king.
1Sa 8:11  And he said, This, will be the manner of the king who will reign over you,—Your sons, will he take and appoint for himself, as his charioteers and as his horsemen, and they shall run before his chariots;
1Sa 8:12  and he will appoint for himself, princes of thousands, and princes of fifties,—and to plough his fields, and to reap his harvest, and to make his weapons of war, and the instruments of his chariots;
1Sa 8:13  And, your daughters, will he take,—as perfumers and as cooks, and as bakers;
1Sa 8:14  And, your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, the best of them, will he take, and give to his servants;
1Sa 8:15  And, your seed, and your vineyards, will he tithe, and give to his courtiers and to his servants;
1Sa 8:16  And, your men-servants, and your maidservants, and your oxen, even the goodliest, and your asses, will he take,—and put them to his work;
1Sa 8:17  Your flocks, will he tithe,—and, ye yourselves, shall become his servants.
1Sa 8:18  Then will ye make outcry, in that day, because of your king whom ye have chosen for yourselves,—and Yahweh will not answer you, in that day.

The Lord Grants Israel's Request

1Sa 8:19  But the people refused to hearken unto the voice of Samuel,—and they said—Nay! but, a king, shall be over us:
1Sa 8:20  so shall, even we, become like all the nations,—and our king shall judge us, and go forth before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 8:21  And Samuel heard all the words of the people,—and spake them in the ears of Yahweh.
1Sa 8:22  And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel: Go ye, every man to his own city.

Any government man creates will quickly become corrupt IMO.

There will never be a truly successful government apart from God - We are all here to learn about good and evil: https://youtu.be/7nJ99uodoXY

Yes thanks Dennis- 1 Sam 8 is one of the examples I gave in the original post and again in the reply. And as I also said I’m not looking for examples of government. I’m looking for examples of individuals uniting together as one body of people and with one voice calling for something.. anything that is not a flat out rejection of God.

1sam 8 with one voice they demanded that a man rule over them
John 18, 19 they demanded that Christ be crucified
Gen 11 theres a whole lotta the word “one” to describe the people as they built the Tower of Babel in defiance of God - “the Lord said behold the people is one”

Outside of the body of Christ, when individuals unite as one it seems to me to always be in defiance or opposition to God

After asking this forum I’m feeling more and more as if that is the case. And interestingly I saw a tweet from Elon Musk last night. He took a user pole and made a business decision based upon the results of the ‘vote’ and used the words “vox populi, vox dei” I’d never heard that expression so I looked it up and it means “the voice of the people is the voice of God”.

Now it makes sense to me why “the voice” of the crowd, mob, many.. tends to reject the One True God. Because it sees itself as the god.

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indianabob

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2022, 07:17:11 PM »

Good points lareli,

The people love the idea of their own free will bringing blessings to themselves and others...apart from God's influence and power.
The other part of Elon's ballot is that it was very close to 50/50, so maybe things will be reversed several times in the next few years.

I recall the examples in the OT where the people repented and so God forgave and blessed them. They couldn't handle their blessings for too long and began again to reject God's way of life so God had to correct them once again.

Over several centuries of the history of Israel they have proven that they cannot obey the law, no one can and that is why we need grace.
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