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[Dynamo54]

Romans 8:1, Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

This on the surface seems easy to understand…but is it?

Ray used this scripture a few times in his Bible study videos and recordings. He said (paraphrasing)”who can condemn you if God does not”.

Well, I will tell you who….I condemn myself. When my thoughts and actions are not in accordance with the mind of Christ…I condemn myself and am miserable. And I ask God’s forgiveness and a few days or a week later, I am again condemning myself and then asking forgiveness, and then some time later it starts all over again!

The scriptures says there is NO condemnation…but there is…from me.

Maybe the “rub” in the scripture is that you have to be in Christ. I think and hope I am! Yet there is the same failing/falling/repentance….over and over and over again. And every time I condemn myself.

So that scripture is not cut and dried.

[Bob]

I'm pretty sure you are not alone with your thinking. I have been like you, experiencing the same thoughts and feelings for almost 60 years. At 83 I see self condemnation, as  part of a learning process, not as a death sentence. This being meant to keep us humble. I see the lake of fire as a period of teaching and learning, which we as Christians experience now. Every one else will have their turn in the lake of fire later."When Gods precepts are in the world ,the whole world will learn righteousness". I think there are Christians who will be shocked when they get to see who they really are when they get to experience the lake of fire. As for now we know who we are, and what we are. At the end of the day after beating myself up spiritually, I can truly understand and say THANK GOD FOR JESUS CHRIST. Florida Bob

[Dynamo54]

Thanks Bob….appreciate your earned, learned wisdom.

[ralph]

Romans 8:1, Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

This on the surface seems easy to understand…but is it?

Ray used this scripture a few times in his Bible study videos and recordings. He said (paraphrasing)”who can condemn you if God does not”.

Well, I will tell you who….I condemn myself. When my thoughts and actions are not in accordance with the mind of Christ…I condemn myself and am miserable. And I ask God’s forgiveness and a few days or a week later, I am again condemning myself and then asking forgiveness, and then some time later it starts all over again!

The scriptures says there is NO condemnation…but there is…from me.

Maybe the “rub” in the scripture is that you have to be in Christ. I think and hope I am! Yet there is the same failing/falling/repentance….over and over and over again. And every time I condemn myself.

So that scripture is not cut and dried.

I am right there with you my friend. It has been a very long and painful process but here is the best part.  I am not the same person I was just a few years ago.  I see growth. I can see the sewer that God dragged me out of and I don't want to go back.  I know without him, without his chastening grace, I'd be no different than the rest of the world.

Mark 2:17
17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[indianabob]

I'm pretty sure you are not alone with your thinking. I have been like you, experiencing the same thoughts and feelings for almost 60 years. At 83 I see self condemnation, as  part of a learning process, not as a death sentence. This being meant to keep us humble. I see the lake of fire as a period of teaching and learning, which we as Christians experience now. Every one else will have their turn in the lake of fire later."When Gods precepts are in the world ,the whole world will learn righteousness". I think there are Christians who will be shocked when they get to see who they really are when they get to experience the lake of fire. As for now we know who we are, and what we are. At the end of the day after beating myself up spiritually, I can truly understand and say THANK GOD FOR JESUS CHRIST. Florida Bob

Hi Florida Bob

Thanks for your comments about our correction in this life and its benefits.
I have only this to add.
Believers are being judged now in this life in preparation for their resurrection at Christ's return.
Those cast into the Lake of Fire will be dead and not conscious or able to be taught.

Indy Bob
=  =

1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
=
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. *[killed again]
= =
Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Bob]

The first time I met Ray was at the 2009 Mobile conference. I had no Idea as to what the subject would be. Imagine my surprise when the subject was
"I can't stop sinning". As I can best recall he then said " aren't you glad you came" Well Duh, Here is a link from back then in regards to comments from the conference. Especially helpful is KATS comment.

 https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,11061.msg95447.html#msg95447

[Dynamo54]

Thanks Bob. I first came to BT in 2019, but did not contact anyone for a couple of years. I spent hours and hours reviewing questions and answers of different topics and was always struck by how insightful Kat’s comments were, and how she ALWAYS directed back to what Ray had taught. It got to where when I started reading a topic’s thread I would look first for her comments before reading the others. When I finally came aboard here I asked about Kat because I had not seen her posts for awhile and thought she might have passed.  Dennis informed me she no longer posts on the forum for her own reasons. Her input is missed, at least by me. 😀

[Bob]

My thoughts exactly, I did the same as you. Thanks' for sharing, Florida Bob

[indianabob]

Hi again Florida Bob,
One further comment just to be clear on one point that you made in the first reply.
You said,
"I think there are Christians who will be shocked when they get to see who they really are when they get to experience the lake of fire."

It is my understanding that no one will get to "experience" the lake of fire.
It will just be done to them.
They will be cast into it and die the second death...so they may experience a minute or two of extreme pain and then blackness.
It is not a teaching event, but rather a penalty for their works of sin that gained them rejection during the next ages to come, but then they will receive life after those ages at the final consummation when death will be eliminated and all will live.

If I misunderstand please correct me.

Indy bob

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi again Florida Bob,
One further comment just to be clear on one point that you made in the first reply.
You said,
"I think there are Christians who will be shocked when they get to see who they really are when they get to experience the lake of fire."

It is my understanding that no one will get to "experience" the lake of fire.
It will just be done to them.
They will be cast into it and die the second death...so they may experience a minute or two of extreme pain and then blackness.
It is not a teaching event, but rather a penalty for their works of sin that gained them rejection during the next ages to come, but then they will receive life after those ages at the final consummation when death will be eliminated and all will live.

If I misunderstand please correct me.

Indy bob

Bob, that is so contrary to what Ray taught I am having trouble believing I have to explain.  The "Second Death" is judgement.  "When His judgements are on the earth, the WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness".  LEARNING RIGHTEOUSNESS IS the result of a "teaching event".  Judgement now, or judgement later.  Two judgements, ONE FIRE. 

The "wages" of sin is death.  Not a "second literal death" or a "literal second death".  That's left-over christian theology, apparently promoted by people who don't like the thought that those "sinners" get off so "easy".  Try being judged NOW, if you think it's easy.  That's what started this thread.  The Resurrection of the Just differs from the Resurrection of the Unjust either in order, or quality, or both, but the Elect are going to judge even angels.  That's the POINT of Election--the salvation of the world. 

[Porter]

I, too, experience the same self condemnation. I hear of it often from the members as well. I do wonder if we are just confusing self condemnation with God's discipline?

Heb 12:11  No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Is there some other way we are saved, if not through pain, sorrow, and repentance? How many times, and how long, must we repent? As long as it takes for God's discipline to train us. Would God tell us to endure to the end if it wasn't necessary?

God likens the process of salvation to war—a war against the natural mind in lofty places. We all know how terrible war can be, and we are each fighting our wars.

Mat 24:6  You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

I really like these quotes from Ray on the subject because it gives me great hope and encouragement.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,11521.0.html


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation [Gk: adverse sentence, condemnation (regardless of what these detractors try to say, that not only does God pour out His indignation and wrath upon His elect, but He poured it out on His son all the days of His life, they say… nonsense )] to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Oh shoot, here’s something we have to do again. ‘Oh, I tried to walk after the spirit, not after the flesh, but I come up short.’ Some of you are shaking your head in agreement with that, you know what I’m talking about.

But here is another encouraging thought, “there’s no condemnation.” If you love Jesus and you love God and this is what you want, you’re on the right track.You might still be sinning, but you’re on the right track.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html


Rom 8:4  …who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

‘Oh Ray, now you blew it, you see I still do walk after the flesh sometimes.’ But where do you want to walk? ‘Well I want to walk after the spirit.’ Well, you’re back in.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
v. 3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
v. 4  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
v. 5  For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh;

Now if you find yourself minding the things of the flesh, you need to pray to God and cry out to help you and save you from that situation. You say this is not me, God, I don’t want to go here. I don’t want to do this, but my flesh is pulling me and I war, I need help, I need reinforcements. You cry out to God and that humbles you. Because you see that you can’t do it. If you could do it, then you would become self sufficient, and you wouldn’t need God. He will always Make you dependant on Him.

[Dave in Tenn]

κατάκριμα
katakrima
kat-ak'-ree-mah
From G2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict): - condemnation.

Thayer Definition:
1) damnatory sentence, condemnation

"Therefor" indicates Paul is referring back to what he's already written.  There is a "reason" why there is no condemnation (no adverse or damnatory verdict, the finding of the judge) and he laid that out in the first 7 chapters.  The word itself is only used three times in the NT.  The other two are also in Romans and precede this use.  Rom_5:16 and Rom_5:18.  Just those two alone are useful in understanding the case Paul is laying out and why he can say "Therefor".

The word in John 3 is different, but the meanings overlap.  It is the verdict and the announcing of the sentence and can even include the carrying out of the sentence.  "We" know that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world.  "We" know that God sent His Son into the world that the world should be saved (not "might" in the chancey sense) through Him.  He that believeth on Him is not "condemned".  He that does not believe is already/has already been condemned.

And what have they been found guilty of and sentenced?  For what have they been condemned?  Not for not believing.  "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.   (And the evidence is:)  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

So what if we do, or have done, the same evil the world does and has done?  "He that believeth on him is not condemned".  (And the evidence is that) he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. 

And that's how this thread started.   

 

 

[Dynamo54]

Porter, very interesting and very powerful comment! As I think about what you say about self condemnation being God’s discipline it rings true to me. And the scripture is spot on.

I guess the same old same old gets tiresome and frustrating. But then I have  to remember that God never stops forgiving if we are sincerely repenting. It is funny sad….I am 68 and you would think I would be further down the road in my journey of overcoming. Satan wants me discouraged, and I sometimes fall into that frame of mind.

Thanks for the encouraging post.

[anamnorris]

A NEWBEE TO THE FORUM:  FOR THOSE OF US CONCERNED WITH OUR ACTIONS AS CHRISTIANS
 
Though at a given time we might still behave as in the past; even as the devil incarnate, this is part of what we have to go through in the school of life this side of God's universe is  - - this all to eventually get to know God and Christ his Son in all their glory. Praised be them for all eternity for that too!!  Paul, in Romans 8:38 tells us that in itself this needs not worry us:  "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.  Nor height, nor depth, not any other creature (this is, not even us ourselves), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  As important  --and as we read in Ezequiel 36:26-27 as well--  Jeremiah 31-33 tells us that we are yet to receive a new heart from God (the one we have now will then be history!!  Aleluya!!!  "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."  ... this promise should put our mind at ease as we become more like Christ is -- we are not yet there, for while we are still on this earth we are still "running the race."  In the meantime, let's keep close to our hearts his promise, "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the world." (Matthew 28:20)

[ralph]

A NEWBEE TO THE FORUM:  FOR THOSE OF US CONCERNED WITH OUR ACTIONS AS CHRISTIANS
 
Though at a given time we might still behave as in the past; even as the devil incarnate, this is part of what we have to go through in the school of life this side of God's universe is  - - this all to eventually get to know God and Christ his Son in all their glory. Praised be them for all eternity for that too!!  Paul, in Romans 8:38 tells us that in itself this needs not worry us:  "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.  Nor height, nor depth, not any other creature (this is, not even us ourselves), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  As important  --and as we read in Ezequiel 36:26-27 as well--  Jeremiah 31-33 tells us that we are yet to receive a new heart from God (the one we have now will then be history!!  Aleluya!!!  "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."  ... this promise should put our mind at ease as we become more like Christ is -- we are not yet there, for while we are still on this earth we are still "running the race."  In the meantime, let's keep close to our hearts his promise, "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the world." (Matthew 28:20)

Well said Ana and welcome!  Nice to meet you.

[mike kyner]

Ph 3;12...not as though I had already attained...and Ph 1:6 ...he which begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. the greatest hope of this age is the life of the ages but God will reconcile all things to himself