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Author Topic: Because lawlessness will multiply...  (Read 2351 times)

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Porter

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Because lawlessness will multiply...
« on: April 25, 2023, 12:17:12 PM »

…the love of many will grow cold – Mat 24:12

I have been thinking of this verse a lot lately, years in fact. So, I wanted to ask the forum members if you've ever thought of this verse, and if so, what does it mean to you? I guess it's only fair if I explain what it means to me first. I'm not trying to teach, just explaining in my own words how I understand the things I learned at bible-truths.com.

So to me, I think it means because “the many” believe in “free will” and because they do not obey God, it causes them to love less and less. This teaching and belief gets passed down year after year, and more and more believe and act on it.

I thought about how easy it was in the past to hate and blame someone if I thought they did wrong. It never occurred to me that they simply couldn't help it, and that I would have done the same thing in their situation. That doesn't mean I approve of whatever it was I thought they did wrong (assuming they did any wrong at all), but it does mean I can and should have more sympathy and mercy.

I know now that God created us with a heart that is too weak to resist sin (Jer 17:9), and not only that, but God also subjected His whole creation to failure (Rom_8:20). So blaming others has gotten a bit harder, knowing these truths.

The teaching and belief of “free will” is so damaging that it causes many to believe that not only are they their own “righteous” gods, but that they believe others are their own gods too, worthy of blame and hate. I think this in turn perpetuates the belief that everyone should be held responsible for their sins. I've seen this in myself, and occasionally still do. So, it's possible that I'm just projecting.

To be clear, I do believe everyone will be held accountable, but not responsible. I understand that there is a difference between being held responsible and being held accountable, not only by definition, but more importantly because of a spiritual principle. It's the principle that says all of humanity are subject to either the law of sin and death, or the law of Christ (Rom_8:2).

Please don't hesitate to add whatever comes to mind. I want to know if I'm understanding this verse and the ideas behind it that I've presented, correctly. Or maybe you have something to add that would help improve my understanding. Because to be totally honest, I'm uncertain if I understand it well enough, and it sounds important. However, if you think it's not relevant, or that I'm way off, please feel free to say that as well. I promise I won't blame you too much. ;) 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 01:43:43 PM by Porter »
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Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Musterseed

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2023, 02:35:11 PM »

From The Myth Of Free Will PT C

Ray…. This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but
they can’t handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole truth; the whole counsel
of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it.
Often they killed the messengers who brought Gods message of Truth.
That’s just how offensive the truth of God is to the carnal mind .I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God’s Truth.

But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the truth is not offensive.
For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers would say, can we talk? Are your kids  in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free Will is not for the immature or faint of heart.

Can you handle the truth?

I agree with your post Porter.   Yesterday I was accused of being in a cult because
I said I believed in the resurrection of the dead and not reincarnation)

2Tim.3:12•••••All who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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Mzantsi

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2023, 03:49:53 PM »

Actually, reincarnation is scriptural if we accept Oxford's definition of the word:

"the rebirth of a soul in another body.
a new version of something from the past."

…the love of many will grow cold – Mat 24:12 

Three things: either one's love will grow cold or hot,or it will be lukewarm.

I think one needs to ask themselves a couple of questions SINCE coming into some truths:

Do I feed the hungry? Do I clothe the naked?Do I visit the sick? Do I share with the poor?Am I laying my life down for my family?

One guy I knew had a lot of zeal but no knowledge, but he soon came into the truth,gained the knowledge but sadly,lost the zeal. Now that is dangerous because Christ will probably reject such a soul. When he was in the dark,he had a lot of zeal to teach the Word and save people from hell but,when his eyes were opened he lost the zeal to teach,why?
I don't know why he lost the zeal,maybe you know.

But I'm thinking some of the dangers in knowing the truth is that,we tend to think we don't have to do anything. Why? We rest on "It is all of God" or "all will be saved" and the likes. Ofcause "all is of God" and "all will be saved,"but that shouldn't be an excuse NOT to work and add value into the team. Sadly,many do this.

There are many who know the truth but will be rejected by Christ. Many who have read Ray's material and be rejected by Christ,as their love did not IMPROVE - their love did not grow hot.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 03:53:25 PM by Mzantsi »
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Amo 5:20 (ISV) Will not the Day of the LORD be darkness, and not light—   pitch black at that, without a ray of sunshine?

octoberose

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2023, 01:41:02 AM »

I think so too !  It’s easy though to think you have to work for your salvation, that you’re not good enough and God  is weighing you on a scale.  But, I know what you’re saying .  Sitting around and thinking you’re in the club and there’s no need to grow in the Spirit of God is just short sighted .  If we want to be more Christ like then I believe that starts now, not just after the resurrection .  “ Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus. “ Philippians 2.    And , “ the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.  I john 2;6
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2023, 11:08:26 AM »

Actually, reincarnation is scriptural if we accept Oxford's definition of the word:

"the rebirth of a soul in another body.
a new version of something from the past."

Not true: https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw
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Porter

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2023, 12:10:55 PM »

Thank you for the replies. As I was reading them, I couldn't help but to see the spiritual reason of each point made. Bear with me as this has turned out to be a much longer response than expected. I would do a tl;dr at the bottom, but I'm not good with those. So if you're not a fan of walls of text, just know that it's a lot of the same where I try to explain in my own words the things I learned at bible-truths.com. There are also things in the wall of text that I didn't learn from Ray that I have questions about.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

It is my understanding that Christ is only interested in the spiritual condition of those He is speaking to, to those that hear Him. Those that did hear Him, but walked away, counted the cost, but realized the cost was too high. This is why they can't handle the truth, this is why their love went cold, and this is why they think that "once saved, always saved" is true.


It's not an easy thing to believe in spiritual things, even harder still is to acquire the Spirit to obey them (Zec_4:6 Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit...), considering how hard it is for a "rich man" to enter the Kingdom. Spiritual obedience is foolishness to those who are perishing because, who wants to do something no one can see? If one is unable to see that this type of carnality is in the heart of every person who has ever lived, then look again.

1Jn 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.


1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 


This isn't telling us to not love the people in the world, but it is telling us to not love what is INSIDE the people of the world, and not to love what was once inside of us, or still may be. Every single word of the passage above and below pertains to the Spirit.


2Pe 2:18  For when they speak great swelling words of vanity ["I will punish the king of Assyria for his arrogant acts and the proud look in his eyes." For he said: I have done this by my own strength and wisdom, for I am clever. - Isa 10:12-13], they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


2Pe 2:19  While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


Can those that want to be under the law even hear the law? Not if the law is spiritual.


Luk 11:42  "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Of course, they can't hear the law; otherwise they would do what the law tells them to do.  So, what is the point in doing something outwardly good if inwardly there is nothing but all manner of evil? (Luk_11:39) Wouldn't it mean more to God if we first clean the inside of the cup, so the outside could be clean?


Luk 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luk 6:47  Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:


Luk 6:48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


Luk 6:49  But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Did they not all hear? Sure sounds like they did.


Rom 10:18  But I ask, "Did they not hear?" Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.

It's not that they didn't hear, it's just that they didn't believe it. Next passage, and let's not forget, the sermon on the Mount of Olives is for "us".

Mat 24:12  Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.


Mat 24:13  But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.


Mat 24:14  This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come.

Question: If Jesus is referring to the end of the world in Mat. 24:14, but the sermon on the mount is FOR US, how do I reconcile this? Maybe I'm just overthinking it too much.


Mat 24:15  "So when you see the abomination [Greek: idolatry] that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" [Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? -  1Co 3:16] (let the reader understand)

Mat 24:16  "then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!


Here's the Amplified Bible's version of Mat 24:15. I found it very peculiar in a good way.


Mat 24:15  So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed


Is this next passage not a witness to Mat. 24.15?


2Th 2:3 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?


2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that, still being with you, I told you these things?
 
Who makes the abomination, the idol of the heart, sitting in God's Temple "desolate" and how?

2Th 2:8 then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence)

Isn't this exactly what Daniel 9:27 is saying?


Dan 9:27 ...And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."


Jesus tells us that he who endures to the end shall be saved (Mat 24:13), so isn't this precisely what Daniel 12: 11-12 is saying?


Dan 12:11  And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.


Dan 12:12  Blessed, happy, fortunate, spiritually prosperous, and to be envied is he who waits expectantly and earnestly [who endures without wavering beyond the period of tribulation] and comes to the 1,335 days! - Amplified Bible

Everything was going smoothly thus far, until I came across these two passages.


Luk 21:20  "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that its desolation has come near.


Luk 21:21  Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! Those inside the city must leave it, and those who are in the country must not enter it,


Luk 21:22  because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written.


Dan 11:31  "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


Dan 11:32  With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.


Dan 11:33  "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.


Dan 11:34  When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.


Dan 11:35  Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.



I can't tell if the two passages are talking about "the many called" or "the few chosen". Can you? Is this simply a prophecy of "the dispersal"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora I suppose it could also be a parable about the persecution of "the few chosen". I see glimpses of "wolves in sheep's clothing", tribulation and the judgment of the Elect by fiery refinement and purification in the Daniel passages. But somehow, I'm still unsure. It seems a proper interpretation of the two passages could make or break my understanding of some things.



If you have any other Scripture that may help in proving or disproving these ideas, please don't hesitate to post them. I don't mind being wrong nearly as much as I used to, but I do love learning more about the "deep things of God".



If I'm "preaching" to the choir, forgive me. I only do it because they are the only ones who would understand and receive it with gladness. They are also the only ones by His Spirit that can show me where I goofed. Nothing beats fellowship with like-minded people. To be honest, I never intended for my response to be as long as this. I couldn't stop as I searched the Scriptures, then one verse led to another verse, and here we are. Furthermore, I debated with myself for hours, wondering if I should put all this out there, as I didn't know how it would be received.


In times like this, I sincerely wish Ray was still alive, so I could ask him what he thinks. I have so many questions, in case you didn't notice by the numerous question marks throughout my post. I struggle greatly with dividing the word of truth. Sometimes things are crystal clear, other times I can't see my hand in front of my face.


I've read all of Ray's papers and emails at least 2 or 3 times each since learning about Ray and his teachings in 2008 or 2009. Not only that, but I searched the Scriptures almost daily for over ten years. It feels like I'm only now starting to see some things, assuming some of the things I'm seeing now are true. I ask myself often if I even have His Spirit, not of just understanding, but of faith, grace and love.

Pamela, you know if they persecuted Christ, they would persecute those that love Him. Endure to the end, and you will be saved.
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Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Musterseed

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2023, 12:17:47 PM »

To quote Mzanti

“ We tend to think we don’t have to do anything.Why? we rest on , it is all of God
or all will be saved, AND THE LIKES, but that shouldn’t be an excuse not to work
and add value into the team.”

You demean the scriptures. Jesus said “ of mine ownself , I can do nothing.

Phil. 2:13  For it is God ( who , man? No , God) which WORKS in you , both to WILL
and to DO of His good pleasure.

what about the man who is paralyzed on the broad of his back, does he actually
need legs to walk in the spirit? Do you think maybe he can be in the kingdom
of God ? He can’t walk to the local hospice to help, he can’t do all of these good works. But if he has been given God’s spirit he can do much. Because it’s Spiritual.
He will want to do Gods good works.

Quote from Ray.” Works won’t get you into the Kingdom but once God gets you into the Kingdom, you will do good works.”

Loving and helping people is admirable and good, no doubt about it. However.

John 3:27••• A person cannot receive even one thing unless it was given him
from heaven.

Maybe your friend lost his zeal to save people from going to hell and to teach
because it was the Will of God that he not do this. What do you think?

Rom.10:3-12•••• As it is written, none is righteous, no not one, no one understands
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless,
no one does good, not even one.

Does God lie ?

Do true believers lean on All is of God and All will be saved? You better believe we
do and every other scripture that’s God breathed.

Only God can open up the human mind and Spirit to His truths .
Praise God , all glory to our Lord and Saviour who will have all men( humanity)
to be saved.


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Musterseed

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2023, 01:23:30 PM »

PS , Thank You Dennis


Porter, I have to go get groceries but I glanced at your post and will do a thorough
reading of it when I get back . God willing. Just one thing I want to touch on is what you said about once saved always saved. I remember Ray saying that yes , this is a true statement but the question is WHEN. When are we saved? I believe this was in his teaching of Getting Saved the hardest thing we will ever do.

God Bless you all . All means All 😁💕


We now are paying $ 10.00 for a gallon of milk or orange juice. What are your prices like in Alaska? 
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Porter

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2023, 11:11:51 PM »

Ah, yes, I remember Ray saying that too about “once saved, always saved” now. If I recall correctly, there were also some other warnings he attributed to it. Thanks for the reminder!

We buy milk by the quart where I live, and it costs 5.15 for the quart. So, a little over 20 dollars for a gallon. We generally will buy a whole case of milk. They ship them in rectangular, heavy-duty

quart size cartons, so maybe the packaging adds to the cost.

As for orange juice, I'm not certain how much it costs. I want to say they are about 8 or 9 dollars for 2 quarts (1.89 l).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 11:14:11 PM by Porter »
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Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Mzantsi

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2023, 11:45:37 AM »

Actually, reincarnation is scriptural if we accept Oxford's definition of the word:

"the rebirth of a soul in another body.
a new version of something from the past."

Not true: https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw

Hi Dennis quick question:

Don't you believe in the rebirth of a soul in another body?


Maybe your friend lost his zeal to save people from going to hell and to teach
because it was the Will of God that he not do this. What do you think?

He had zeal without knowledge,then Jehovah gave him knowledge meaning now he has both zeal and knowledge. So why not continue to teach now with your NEW found knowledge?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 12:01:13 PM by Mzantsi »
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Musterseed

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2023, 01:04:28 PM »

Good morning Porter.
Great post. I have spent much time on it , it took awhile.
You said all was going well until Luke 21:20-22

I came to the same conclusion . I am finding it difficult to decern the physical
and spiritual here. Maybe someone else more experienced can help.

However with Daniel 11:35 …. and some of the wise shall stumble so that they may be refined, purified and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits
it’s appointed time.

Mal. 3:34… He will sit as a refiners fire and purifier of silver and He will purify
the Son’s of Levi and refine them like gold and silver and they will bring offerings
in righteousness to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be
pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

The sons of Levi are the Elect .

Rev.7:14••• These are the ones coming out of great tribulation.
They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Dan.11:27•• and as for the two kings , their hearts shall be bent on doing evil.
They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be
and the time appointed.
Verse 36•••• The King shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify
himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things AGAINST the God
of gods . He shall prosper till the indignation ( wrath) is accomplished for what is decreed shall be done.

See John 16:8-11

John 16:12- I still have many things to say to you , but you cannot hear them now.
I think with this scripture it means we have to wait for the Return of our Lord but I’m not sure. Yes it would be nice if Ray was still here to help , but we do have a teacher
who will never let us down, Ray had never let us down either . It would have been nice if who’d had put us in a fancy
hotel spa in the Swiss Alps somewhere too😁 but nope, He plunked us right in the
midst of wolves .
And so we keep digging for the apples of gold in the pitcher of silver. 🤔
I do believe that you do have Gods Spirt  Porter and that comes bearing gifts
of faith and grace. 

God Bless You All
In Christ Pamela
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Porter

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Re: Because lawlessness will multiply...
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2023, 01:46:06 PM »

It's all good, Pamela. Thanks for trying! Like I said before, one verse led to another in my response to all the replies, and I couldn't stop until I came across those two passages.


Thanks for the kind words about having the Spirit. I certainly do hope I have it. However, it's like you said about them passages, I may just have to wait on the return of the Lord or even the end of my life to know if I've actually fought the good fight with in faithfulness.
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Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat.
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
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