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[HoneyLamb56]

Matthew 24:30   Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When this speaks of "sign" is this just telling us that a prophecy sign is being fulfilled when we see it?  or why wouldn't it just say, after the heavens are shaken the Son of Man will appear.  It sounds like they will at first see the sign, then later after the mourning, they will actually see .... coming.

Diane

[Porter]

Good question, and I found this from Ray that may help.

https://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

PROOF FOR WHEN THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME

Let us be clear, that the "day of the Lord" is the time period of Christ's return to this earth to punish Babylon the Great and to pour out His righteous indignation on her (and on those nations who follow and worship her) for her evil crimes of inhumanity and blasphemy. Here is the order of events (Mat. 24:29-30). It's as simple as one, two, three:

        "Immediately AFTER the affliction [great affliction, or great tribulation--ver. 29], of those days ..."

        "... the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken ..."

        "And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."

The "day of the Lord," the day that the Lord comes, clearly is "after" the great affliction, and "after" the heavenly signs. The book of Joel gives us a second confirmation:

"Alas! Alas! Alas for the day! For near is the DAY OF THE LORD.

And as devastation from Him Who-Suffices is it coming" (Joel 1:15).

    "For coming is the DAY OF THE LORD! A day of darkness and gloominess. A day of clouds and murkiness" (Joel 2:2).

    "The heavens quake, The sun and the moon are somber, and the stars gather in their brightness ... before His army" [Rev. 19:11] (Joel 2:10) ...

    "And He will spare His people" (2:18).

    "And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31).

So we have this event neatly book-ended with references to the "great affliction" and the "heavenly signs." Matt. 24:29 clearly tells us that "immediately AFTER" the great affliction or tribulation of those days, the signs in the sun, moon and stars occur, followed by the return of Christ--the day of the Lord. And Joel 2:31 clearly tells us that the signs in the heavens occur "BEFORE" the coming of the day of the Lord. As to the chronology of these grand events, there can be no honest dispute--the day of the Lord does not include the great tribulation, but comes after the great tribulation, and after the heavenly signs.

[Musterseed]

Excellent Porter.
Just to add. Luke 11:29-32….. This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for
a sign , but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

The sigh of Jonah is a parable.
Ray explains it in an email in the forum titled… Jesus was three days and three
nights in the heart of the earth.
Posted by Dennis.

[ralph]

"And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31)."

I believe Ray spoke about this in one of his videos.   The Sun, which is a symbol of God, no longer gives its light. The moon, which reflects the light of the sun, a symbol of the church, turned to blood when it began to murder God’s people, i.e., the stoning of Stephen.

[HoneyLamb56]

Thanks Porter...now makes sense to me

Diane

[Porter]

Excellent Porter.
Just to add. Luke 11:29-32….. This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for
a sign , but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

The sigh of Jonah is a parable.
Ray explains it in an email in the forum titled… Jesus was three days and three
nights in the heart of the earth.
Posted by Dennis.

That parable you quoted was foremost in my mind as I was scouring Ray's paper's for an answer to Diane's question. I thought I fully understood “the sign of Jonah”, until I came across another quote from Ray while looking for an answer to Diane's question. The part I understood about the sign of Jonah was that it signified the DEPTH of Jesus' suffering. Ray explains further by stating it was also a sign of Christ's Messiahship and what that means for all of humanity. Something I missed the first time around.

https://bible-truths.com/email6.htm

Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES.  Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL.  Just how did He do this?  (1) “He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship!     "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)? The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish?   EVERYTHING!  John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF!  And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!-------------

Not completely related to Diane's question, but I thought it was such good news nonetheless. Thanks for mentioning it Pamela!

"And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31)."

I believe Ray spoke about this in one of his videos.   The Sun, which is a symbol of God, no longer gives its light. The moon, which reflects the light of the sun, a symbol of the church, turned to blood when it began to murder God’s people, i.e., the stoning of Stephen.

Yes, I remember that also, Ralph. To be honest, it always kind of confused me because Ray said or implied it was a prophecy of a literal event. I mean I can see it that way too, so maybe it was one of them multi layered prophecies, where it's a parable as well. Because I can definitely see the parable too. However, wouldn't this go against another of Ray's statements where he said, “parables are never literally true, but they are always spiritually true”? This is why I'm kind of confused.

Thanks Porter...now makes sense to me

Diane

Not a problem, Diane, I'm glad it makes sense to you. I think the following parable from that chapter in Mathew is a great third witness. It's also a reminder that all parables mean the same thing.

Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch [Joh 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches] is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves[Rev 22:2 and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.], ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Ever seen a fig tree? It looks more like a collection of vines. Don't you also love how Jesus calls the fig tree a "him"?

I apologize for the rambling, but I think this is all getting to my head. Thankfully, we can know these things through His Spirit working through Ray's papers.

[Musterseed]

Thank you Porter.

Yes . The heart of the earth is the depth of suffering. Earthy Adam.
The heart( depth ) of the earth iIS the parable.

from Ray in the Email I suggested.

“The heart of the earth is the very depth of the flesh.
The flesh of man is of the earth, earthy Paul tells us.”

“ Jesus called three days and three nights in the heart of the earth the Sign of Jonah.
Jonah was not dead at all. Jonah went through a living hell, if you will.
Are the three days and three nights being compared with three days and three nights
of Jesus? No, no that is not the point of the comparison.

Jonah: AS Jonah was three days and three nights in the Whales Belly
Jesus: SO shall the Son of Man BE in the heart of the earth.

There is your comparison.
There is your sign.
There is your parable.”

So when Diane said, it sounds like they would first see the sign,
it came to me that the first sign would be to be human, earthy, man
which began with Adam. The dust of the earth that Satan dines on.


This evil generation seeks for a sign , but no sign will be given except the sign
Of Jonah, to be of the earth. They don’t know what that means. The physical
is all they know. They live by sight. We live by faith.
And we know that the Kingdom does not come with observation. I hope I am
making this more clear. I need God’s help. 💕

May Our Lord give us the endurance and wisdom we need to overcome
and to find us worthy to escape the things coming upon the earth.

In Christ , Pamela

[Musterseed]

Here is a wonderful scripture.

Gal. 6:17…… From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my
body the marks( sign ) of Jesus.

marks.G4742, stigma, to stick, that is prick, a mark incised or punched
( for recognition of ownership) that is scars of service, mark.

Dictionary…. Mark… bruise, crush, stripe, stigma.

[Dave in Tenn]

"And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31)."

I believe Ray spoke about this in one of his videos.   The Sun, which is a symbol of God, no longer gives its light. The moon, which reflects the light of the sun, a symbol of the church, turned to blood when it began to murder God’s people, i.e., the stoning of Stephen.

Yes, I remember that also, Ralph. To be honest, it always kind of confused me because Ray said or implied it was a prophecy of a literal event. I mean I can see it that way too, so maybe it was one of them multi layered prophecies, where it's a parable as well. Because I can definitely see the parable too. However, wouldn't this go against another of Ray's statements where he said, “parables are never literally true, but they are always spiritually true”? This is why I'm kind of confused.

The stoning of Stephen was a literal event.  Adding, to me--since His elect were chosen from the "foundation of the world"--"we" needn't wait until our eyes are opened for this persecution to commence.  "We've" lived it in Babylon.  We just hadn't seen it yet--and to whatever degree we may have seen it, we didn't recognize it for what it was, and we may have even participated in it both towards ourselves and others.  Saul stood by at the stoning of Stephen.  Before he was Paul--but not before he was chosen. 

If he's opened our eyes, that TOO (the un-closing) is a literal event--a thing that happened.   

[Porter]

That helps Pamela, thank you!
I think I get it now, Dave. Thanks!

[ralph]

"And I will give MIRACLES IN THE HEAVENS above, And signs on the earth, Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, The sun shall be turned to darkness, And the moon to blood (2:30-31), BEFORE the coming of the DAY OF THE LORD, the great and fearful day" (2:30-31)."

I believe Ray spoke about this in one of his videos.   The Sun, which is a symbol of God, no longer gives its light. The moon, which reflects the light of the sun, a symbol of the church, turned to blood when it began to murder God’s people, i.e., the stoning of Stephen.

Yes, I remember that also, Ralph. To be honest, it always kind of confused me because Ray said or implied it was a prophecy of a literal event. I mean I can see it that way too, so maybe it was one of them multi layered prophecies, where it's a parable as well. Because I can definitely see the parable too. However, wouldn't this go against another of Ray's statements where he said, “parables are never literally true, but they are always spiritually true”? This is why I'm kind of confused.

The stoning of Stephen was a literal event.  Adding, to me--since His elect were chosen from the "foundation of the world"--"we" needn't wait until our eyes are opened for this persecution to commence.  "We've" lived it in Babylon.  We just hadn't seen it yet--and to whatever degree we may have seen it, we didn't recognize it for what it was, and we may have even participated in it both towards ourselves and others.  Saul stood by at the stoning of Stephen.  Before he was Paul--but not before he was chosen. 

If he's opened our eyes, that TOO (the un-closing) is a literal event--a thing that happened.   

Amen.  Well said, Dave.

Am I correct in saying that throughout the centuries, millions of people have been murdered, spiritually speaking, by the Church through the teaching of false doctrines?  Not to mention the hatred human beings have toward one another. And it will only get worse. 

1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

2 Timothy 3:13
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.