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[Mzantsi]

Mat 24:23 (20cNT) And, at that time, if any one should say to you ‘Look! here is the Christ!’ or ‘Here he is!’, do not believe it;

Mat 24:24 (20cNT) for false Christs and false Prophets will arise, and will display great signs and marvels, so that, were it possible, even God’s People would be led astray.

How do you understand this verse or verses? Will people really say to us "Here is the Christ"

Have you witnessed "great signs" and "marvels" from a false Christ in your life?

[zvezda]

https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

    "And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)

    "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:4-5)

I marvel that theologians teach that many people will come saying that "they are the Christ," No, Jesus did not say that many would come claiming that they, themselves, are Christ, but rather that He (Christ) is the Christ. Now then, who but Christians teach that Jesus Christ IS THE CHRIST of God? No one, but Christians only. So those who "deceive many" are Christians!

About every ten or twenty years a person will come along and claim that he, himself, is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And so, it is not the "many" who do this, but rather only an occasional one every so many decades. And, no one of normal intelligence (certainly not "the many") would ever really believe that these weirdos really are Jesus Christ. So these rare few are not themselves the "many" nor do they deceive the "many."

It's not the Muslims who teach that Jesus is the Christ. It's not the Hindus who teach that Jesus is the Christ. It is not the heathens or the pagans that teach that Jesus is the Christ. And certainly the athiests do not teach the Jesus is the Christ. You know who they are--they are the pastors, ministers, teachers, prophets, priests, shepherds, and theologians of Christendom. They are "many," and Jesus said they would be deceiving "many." There is no other category of people on earth whose number is "many," who claim to represent Christ, and teach that Christ is the Christ, yet are deceiving "many."

If you really think that the leaders of the Christian Church are not these "many false prophets," who are "deceiving many," then you have to account for them with some other large group that does this, or you make Christ and the Scriptures out to be lying.

[Mzantsi]

Thanks Zve.

Have you witnessed "great signs" and "marvels" from a false Christ in your life?

Not sure I understand what it means by great signs and marvels.

[zvezda]

probably a good idea to pay attention to the words, especially Ray's comment in the brackets:

https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

    "And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)
   

[octoberose]

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

[Porter]

There isn't a person in the history of the world that hasn't been deceived by Satan into believing that “the man of lawlessness” (also known as “the beast”) is a powerful god able to thwart the will of his or her Creator.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2Th 2:3 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that, still being with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era.”
2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer may be coming to be out of the midst,
2Th 2:8 then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence),
2Th 2:9 whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles”

Rev 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Unless and until Jesus reveals the lawless one in each believer in every generation, and then destroys him by the spirit of His mouth and by the advent of His presence, Satan will continue to deceive them into believing “he is a god sitting in the Temple of God”. What greater sign and wonder is there than to say, “who is like the beast, and who can make war with him?”. (Rev_13:4)

[indianabob]

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.

Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 

[zvezda]

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: "Thank God that it is not possible." Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.

Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The OP is asking about signs and wonders from a false christ, I don't think Rev 13 is about false christ.
Rev 13 is about the beast, and who is the "beast"?


https://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don't want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.

"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"

The "beast" is you!


However, with all the AI and 3D hologram technologies, it's not hard to create fake great signs such as making fire come down from the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmpe1uYTDgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKnHek04Ouw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRtEXQSAxJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12Rqe8zMlY

There's also a conspiracy theory that NASA's secret "Project Blue Beam" will be used for creating an artificial fake second coming Of Jesus Christ. Well, who knows.... a lot of past conspiracy theories turned out to be true anyway...

But NASA is not a false christ or false prophet, they never preach anything about Christ. According to Matt 24:24, it's NOT possible for a false christ or false prophet to perform great signs and wonders.

https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

    "And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)

[indianabob]

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: "Thank God that it is not possible." Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?

Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders?   I don’t think that has come yet.

You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.

Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The OP is asking about signs and wonders from a false christ, I don't think Rev 13 is about false christ.
Rev 13 is about the beast, and who is the "beast"?


https://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don't want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.

"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"

The "beast" is you!


However, with all the AI and 3D hologram technologies, it's not hard to create fake great signs such as making fire come down from the sky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmpe1uYTDgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKnHek04Ouw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRtEXQSAxJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12Rqe8zMlY

There's also a conspiracy theory that NASA's secret "Project Blue Beam" will be used for creating an artificial fake second coming Of Jesus Christ. Well, who knows.... a lot of past conspiracy theories turned out to be true anyway...

But NASA is not a false christ or false prophet, they never preach anything about Christ. According to Matt 24:24, it's NOT possible for a false christ or false prophet to perform great signs and wonders.

https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

    "And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)

= =
Friend zvezda,
Subject to correction I think it actually says that the elect cannot be deceived by the great signs and wonders.
Not that the signs and wonders are NOT possible.
So Satan's messengers will be able to call down fire from heaven and other signs such as giving life to the dead.
And all of these wonders that are intended to deceive are according to God's intention to lead people astray who do not believe.
God uses Satan to carry out God's overall plan and to deceive the majority.
Satan could not do his evil if God had not intended it to happen.
Bob

[zvezda]

Hi Bob,

I think Matt 24:24 is saying it's NOT possible for the false prophets to perform great signs and wonders, and this (not having the ability to perform signs and wonders) is exactly the reason why they can't deceive the elect.

The whole chapter of Rev 13 is talking about the wild beast, it's not talking about satan's minions.
Unless you think the wild beast is satan's minion and disagree with Ray about who the beast is.

[Porter]

Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: “Thank God that it is not possible.” Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?

It only becomes not possible to deceive the Elect after Christ has “despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence” (2Th 2:. I assure you, “the whole world" was deceived (Rev 12:9) including Ray, Ray even admitted it.

https://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

"THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!"

How will we ever understand and believe Christs parables, if we first do not know who the parables are talking about?

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [Greek: lawnesness].

The MANY that call Jesus Lord, and the MANY that call Jesus the Christ, are the same MANY that deceive us by their so called “wonderful and mighty works”.

Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This isn't exactly rocket science, so you don't have to be too intelligent to understand it, but to be fair, it does take the Spirit to understand.

Christ in you is how "the beast within" is removed and revealed to you.

Col 1:26  Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

[octoberose]

Ray is the only one I’ve read who interprets Revelation and the beast in this way.  I just don’t know.  Not sure what the need of a vision is if the beast is just every man.  6 is the number of man- it always has been. 666? Well, seems to be more than just a simple man.   

[Porter]

The whole point of visions, signs, miracles, prophecies, and parables, is so many called wouldn't understand. But to those who are being saved, it is the power of “Christ in you”. Christs life and even His crucifixion is a parable to them.

1Co 1:18  For to those who are perishing the message of the cross is foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is God's power.

1Co 1:19  For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts.

1Co 1:20  Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn't God made the world's wisdom foolish?

1Co 1:21  For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.

1Co 1:22  For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom,

1Co 1:23  but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

1Co 1:24  Yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God's power and God's wisdom,


It's all one.


1Pe 2:6  For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!

1Pe 2:7  So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected--this One has become the cornerstone, and

1Pe 2:8  A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.

It really isn't that complicated. The number of the beast is 666, it is the number of humanity. Humanity has all the hall-MARKS of a wild, untamed godless beast.

[octoberose]

Well , could you try and explain Revelations 13 to me ?  Every now and then God opens a door for me and I can see something in the text that is  not obvious . But  Revelations ?   I only have questions . Yes I’ve read Rays work but unlike most of what he teaches this doesn’t  sit with me .I’m not arguing at all - I simply don’t see it .

[Porter]

I know you're not arguing octoberose because if I thought you were, I would have never replied. I'm simply too weak to get into arguments, as it is one of my character flaws.

We all have different gifts, even those who do not fully understand can enter into the Kingdom of God.

1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all do miracles?

1Co 12:30  Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages? Do all interpret?

1Co 12:31  But desire the greater gifts. And I will show you an even better way.

I know exactly what the entire body of Christ is experiencing because the God of one of us is the same God of all of us.

Ray has written in great length concerning whom the beast of Revelation is and Revelation in general. Everything written in Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. However, I did find this wonderful summary that has helped me understand the plan of God and a bit better about prophecy in Revelation.


https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Let me give you the history of the world including all future prophecies, in one sentence:

    God perfectly planned and recorded His creation of the heavens, angels, the earth, and carnal humanity, who sinned wickedly and were all drowned (save a few); who then reached for their own heaven at the tower of Babel in rebellion to the God Who then scattered them (save a few); who later built Babylon into a great pagan empire which God destroyed (save a few); who have since built many wicked and fornicating Babylons collectively called, Mystery Babylon The Great, whom God warns before utterly destroying again (save a few); and of "the Few' God is creating a New Spiritual Humanity of Son-and-Daughter Saviours like unto Jesus, in New Jerusalem on spiritual Mt. Zion, were ALL will be redeemed (NOT just a few); that God may be "ALL in All"!

Maybe I could shorten it down a smidgen, but there it is. The reality of most of the symbolism of Revelation is contained in that one sentence. “But Mr. Smith, I don't see “666' anywhere in your sentence.” You don't? I do. I see 666 followed by 777 in nearly every phrase of that sentence. “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches!”


This tells me that the number 666 in and of itself isn't terribly important, as long as I get the big picture. The big picture along with the truth that “all is of God”, Jesus only taught in parables, the bible is one giant parable and there is no free will, has taught me a lot. These truths make many of the smaller details that I come across make more sense. These truths are an excellent foundation to begin learning about Jesus.

[zvezda]

Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: “Thank God that it is not possible.” Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?

It only becomes not possible to deceive the Elect after Christ has “despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence” (2Th 2:. I assure you, “the whole world" was deceived (Rev 12:9) including Ray, Ray even admitted it.

just wanted to clarify -
I don't deny that the world was deceived.
I was just talking about Matt 24:24 - the signs and wonders performed by false prophets (that's what the OP asks)
The false prophets don't have the ability to do it (as Ray said it's not possible), that's why they can't deceive the elect by performing signs and wonders, that's also why I asked the question "why expect something (signs and wonders performed by false prophets) that's not possible to come".
I didn't say the world can't be deceived by any means.

[Porter]

All good zvezda. Sorry, if I seemed a little gung ho about it.

[Dave in Tenn]

Paul mentions "false wonders".  2Th 2:9  whose (that Wicked) coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders...
Anybody who's seen a day's worth of TBN has seen this.     

"Signs and wonders" are not the operative words in this passage.  POWER is.  If "wonders" can be false/lying then they derive from false/lying power.  "Free will" is a false power. 

δύναμις
dunamis
Thayer Definition:
1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

 

[Porter]

I think you are making an important distinction, Dave. I get the part about “free will” being a false power, but is there another way to explain the distinction between “signs and lying wonders” and the false power of “free will”? Is it safe to say that the part about signs and wonders takes too much precedence, while the false power isn't given enough or even any consideration at all?

I guess my real question is, how do the lying wonders and signs relate to watching a day's worth of TBN? I know TBN is full of “false prophets” who make deceitful prophecies. It sounds simple, but the point escapes me, and I'm trying to tie it all together in my mind.

[Musterseed]

I can’t sleep 😩

This power is after the working of Satan is what the scripture says.