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"Look,here is the Christ"

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Dave in Tenn:

--- Quote from: Porter on April 23, 2023, 12:46:33 AM ---I think you are making an important distinction, Dave. I get the part about “free will” being a false power, but is there another way to explain the distinction between “signs and lying wonders” and the false power of “free will”? Is it safe to say that the part about signs and wonders takes too much precedence, while the false power isn't given enough or even any consideration at all?

I guess my real question is, how do the lying wonders and signs relate to watching a day's worth of TBN? I know TBN is full of “false prophets” who make deceitful prophecies. It sounds simple, but the point escapes me, and I'm trying to tie it all together in my mind.

--- End quote ---

Yes..."signs and wonders" are wrapped up in power--both FALSE and TRUE.  It should go without stating, that POWER is the source of "signs and wonders".  Paul has plenty to say about the "signs and wonders" that followed Christ and, later, the Apostles.  At the same time "false wonders" are all about power, too--especially about amassing it.   

Watching a day's worth of TBN (I'm assuming...I haven't had the horror in decades) exposes one to False "faith healers", false "prosperity preachers" and others who lord it over their audiences with false "signs and wonders".  "Plant the seed and get rich, and here are some testimonies to back that up--as if my second 60 million dollar private jet isn't evidence enough."   ;)    Just because they may not match an imagination about what constitutes a "sign and wonder" doesn't mean they are NOT.  OF COURSE THEY ARE!  How are "we" supposed to be able to recognize false "signs and wonders" in some imaginary future if "we" don't recognize what's occurring in our "present"?

Of course, not all people in the pews are "deceived" by Benny Hinn and that ilk, and see them for charlatans.  But they readily eat up the message that they possess a power that can thwart the Love, will and purpose of God, and that those who do will burn forever and ever.

Sign
G4592
σημεῖον
sēmeion
Thayer Definition:

1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known

There are other definitions under Thayers, but they tend to the theological.  This one (as most first listed definitions do) is the soundest and most natural meaning of the word. 

 

Dave in Tenn:
Rose, I'm not interested in simply and soley having doctrinal arguments with "the church".  When I was in it, I hated the notion of a "hell", though all I could do was make my peace with it and live with the consequences.  I'm certain that I was not (and am not now) alone in that.  Even my last pastor came up with a sort of everlasting "hell-light" version that didn't include literal fire and torture that apparently he could make his peace and live with.  This is not a doctrinal disagreement like how often to have the Lord's Supper.  This is the very depths of Satan and affects every member--even those other-wise kind and upstanding folks.  They are as damaged and imprisoned by that notion as those that delight in the thought of eternal torture.  Nothing they can do (just as nothing I could do) comes without the stain of that belief, including loving others and feeding the poor.  I fed the poor, visited prisons, and did what I knew how to do to love others--I know from where I speak.

I ache for them to be free of that belief.  But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly.  "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship.  Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan. 

Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified.  They themselves will be saved, though as by fire.  Same as "us".  All in the order that Glorifies God. 

indianabob:
Dave,
Good discussion.
I especially appreciate your final comments.
1 Cor 3:11-15 gives each of us the confidence to continue in faith, doubting nothing.

Thanks, Bob

octoberose:

I ache for them to be free of that belief.  But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly.  "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship.  Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan. 

Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified.  They themselves will be saved, though as by fire.  Same as "us".  All in the order that Glorifies God.
[/quote]

You’re right of course.  God frequently surprises with His mercy, even to us. All we can do is leave it in His hands.

Wendy:
I agree Bob the discussions on here have been so helpful spiritual y.  Thanks to everyone contributing .I love reading them all .very up lifting to the soul 😍
God Bless
Wendy

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