"Look,here is the Christ"

[Porter]

You're absolutely right, Pamela.

After thinking about it for a while, I think I understand a bit better now. Are you, Dave, saying the false prophets are lying to us through or by false "miracles" so we would believe we have free will? So, what exactly is the false "miracle"?
Moses and Aaron, as commanded by God, performed miracles in front of Pharaoh, and his officials and I assume the Israelites were present also. Moses and Aaron did this so that the Israelites would know God was the same God of their fathers (Exo 4:5), and so they would "worship Me in the wilderness" (Exo 7:16). Pharaoh then commanded his officials to perform the same miracles as Moses and Aaron. Because Pharaoh's officials were able to do the same miracles as Aaron and Moses, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, so he would not let the Israelites go.

Of course, like everything else, "all is of God" and God intended to harden Pharaoh's heart, so the whole world would know there is only One God.

Rom 9:17  For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
1Co 8:5  For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth--as there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
1Co 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him.
1Co 8:7  However, not everyone has this knowledge. In fact, some have been so used to idolatry up until now, that when they eat food offered to an idol, their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

For the first time in my life, I know what 1Co 8:7 means! I apologize for yelling, but I'm excited . There is so much more spiritual wisdom packed into the story of Moses and Pharaoh, but I need to stop.

I still don't know what the false "miracle" is, but I feel like I've gained a lot of understanding from trying to find out. Not to mention a deeper appreciate for the power and wisdom of God and all of you here.

It's just one more nail in the coffin of "free will" for me.

[octoberose]

I was thinking about the sorcerers of Pharaohs day too, and how they did their signs, their tricks and then Moses came and wiped theirs  out.  I was also thinking we live in an age where UFO's ( they are calling them something else now ) are being talked about with video and our government is acknowledging  them.  Ray said there was no other life anywhere as far as on distant planets. So, are not demonic forces able to come up with 'signs and wonders ?'  I feel like we're being set up to see beings from another realm come down and deceive people with their 'power'.   I know this isn't where this discussion is headed, but I don't think the answer lies in TBN or the local churches.   And those churches with power are the ones who love well and believe it or not, there are churches out there who love well. They may be off track in many things, but how does it profit anyone of us to believe in reconciliation and hate their brother? I know people who just humbly serve, who feed the homeless and clothe those who don't have anything . I know those who visit people in jail because Jesus told us to.  We may be 'right' on a lot of things, but loving your neighbor is at least as important.  When those signs comes, don't be surprised. At least that's what I think.

[Porter]

I wonder how many would actually be deceived by UFO's in the sky doing signs and wonders, though. Unless.......

I watched a movie last night with my wife called 'The Fifth Wave'. It was about an alien invasion and how they killed nearly every one in the world through these "waves" of attack. The fifth and final wave was intended to finish the job of killing whatever remnant of humanity remained alive. The fifth wave involved having the aliens attempt to blend in with the humans by taking over the bodies of Army commanders and soldiers to look like humans in authority.

Then the false Army recruited actual human teens and smaller children to train them to fight. They put implants in the back of the neck of these children to "keep track" of them, according to the false Army. These children had no idea the Army were actually the aliens. The false Army then informed the children that the "aliens" were using human bodies to hide in plain sight. Talk about hypocrites!  The aliens told the children that they could have revenge on the aliens for killing their loved ones if they went through the training.

After the children were trained to fight, the false Army made up of aliens sent the children out into the streets (they wouldn't even lift one of their fingers to help the children) to hunt for what they thought were aliens disguised as humans. The false Army gave the children helmets with special camera's attached to them so that the "aliens" lit up green when they saw them through the camera. The children eventually figured out that the implants in their necks were causing the real humans that they were hunting to light up green. The movie ended with the children blowing up the base of the false Army made up of the real aliens. Suffice it to say, I think there will be a sequel, but I hope not because I'll be forced to watch it.

Anyhow, I think you get the idea of how false prophets or false "Shepard's" could deceive and lead astray the sheep by dressing up as one of them. It's simple, effective, and quite ingenious if you ask me, especially when you know, "all is of God".

Mat 7:15  "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

So, you're right, we can't hate or blame the deceived sheep or be too hard on them for being deceived. I mean, we were once in their shoes. The false Shepard's, those that led them and us astray, will have a lot more answering to do in the day of the Lord. Even when "all is of God".

I never got the feeling anyone here hates the many called. If anything, you'll hear about folks hating themselves because of sin. If we believe God knows what is in the heart of each person, we should trust He knows how to be fair in His judgments. God did, after all, subject all of humanity to failure, so He could take the glory for its success (Rom 8:20,21).

Frequently when we talk about "the many called" and "false prophets", we are using them as EXAMPLES to see within ourselves the things that must be repented of. In fact, this is precisely what the Apostle Paul calls them.

1Co 10:11  Now these things happened to them (referring to disobedient children) as EXAMPLES, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1Co 10:12  Therefore, whoever thinks he stands must be careful not to fall! 

If you've ever thought the body of Christ frequented this forum, then don't you think God is able to teach them how to obey Him? I'm not trying to be snarky or start an argument, just asking a question that you may not have thought of.

[Mzantsi]

When watching TBN, do you guys see "great signs" and "wonders?"

Rev 13 has two beasts,one is mankind as Ray taught,but didn't explain the other beast.

Again,when watching TBN do you see them(false prophets) performing "spectacular signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth?"

[Musterseed]

To answer your question Porter , from Myth of free Will .

Quote from Ray" the natural mind of man( humanity) with his non existent
free Will is NOT at liberty or free to love God and obey His Spiritual law. Romans
8:7 along with hundreds of other supporting scriptures proves this beyond a
shadow of a doubt.

2Thes.2:11.and for this cause, God shall send them STRONG DELUSION that
they should believe a ( the ) lie.

What cause? 2 Thes.2:10... because they receive not the love of the truth.

Back to Romans 8:7..'the carnal mind ( the natural mind) is enmity ( hatred)
against God, neither indeed can be.

God knew exactly how to insight hatred out of Joseph's brothers , and God knows
exactly how to insight hatred out of US toward HIM.
God has the entire human race born under the law of sin and death.

Jesus said, " of mine ownself I CAN DO
NOTHING."
The source of all power, physical and spiritual is God. Everything and everyone is
under His control. Jesus also told us where He got His power, the Father gave it to ME.

God is doing a strange work on the earth. What are y'all ( American language 😁)
seeing around you?
The working of Satan???
Working... Gi1753, energia, from G1756, efficiency,( energy) operation,
strong, ( effectual) working, 1722 and 2041, active, operative.

The ESV says the activity of Satan.

Dan.4:16.... Let his mind be changed from a man's , and let a beasts mind be given
to him and let seven periods of time pass over him.
Dan. 4:23... verse 25.... till( until) you know that the MOST HIGH RULES THE
KINGDOM OF MEN ( humanity) and give it to whom He will.

Anyway, this is my understanding, I hope it is not teaching , I'm using what I learned
from the Myth of Free Will .

And just what caused Israel to cry onto God? Their own free Will? No.
Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried.... There is always a cause,
but it is never man's free will. See Exo.2:23-25.

Aren't we crying and groaning and longing and yearning for our Saviour to come
and save humanity. It brings tears to my eyes every time , not because I think
He will not come, and believe that He will torture His own children and that they
will never see their loved ones again, as is taught in the churches, no .
I know and I believe that Bible truths is a testimony to the world that Jesus
Christ is the Savior of the whole world 1Tim.4:10&11( not just a few) .
For when Thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn
righteousness. Isa.26:9

Gods judgements are severe, no good to deny it, but they will bring all the
Blessings promised . I can now imagine a world where our children are safe
from evil. Praise God , Come Lord Jesus, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Open to all correction. God Bless You All 💕

[Dave in Tenn]

I think you are making an important distinction, Dave. I get the part about "free will" being a false power, but is there another way to explain the distinction between "signs and lying wonders" and the false power of "free will"? Is it safe to say that the part about signs and wonders takes too much precedence, while the false power isn't given enough or even any consideration at all?

I guess my real question is, how do the lying wonders and signs relate to watching a day's worth of TBN? I know TBN is full of "false prophets" who make deceitful prophecies. It sounds simple, but the point escapes me, and I'm trying to tie it all together in my mind.

Yes..."signs and wonders" are wrapped up in power--both FALSE and TRUE.  It should go without stating, that POWER is the source of "signs and wonders".  Paul has plenty to say about the "signs and wonders" that followed Christ and, later, the Apostles.  At the same time "false wonders" are all about power, too--especially about amassing it.   

Watching a day's worth of TBN (I'm assuming...I haven't had the horror in decades) exposes one to False "faith healers", false "prosperity preachers" and others who lord it over their audiences with false "signs and wonders".  "Plant the seed and get rich, and here are some testimonies to back that up--as if my second 60 million dollar private jet isn't evidence enough."       Just because they may not match an imagination about what constitutes a "sign and wonder" doesn't mean they are NOT.  OF COURSE THEY ARE!  How are "we" supposed to be able to recognize false "signs and wonders" in some imaginary future if "we" don't recognize what's occurring in our "present"?

Of course, not all people in the pews are "deceived" by Benny Hinn and that ilk, and see them for charlatans.  But they readily eat up the message that they possess a power that can thwart the Love, will and purpose of God, and that those who do will burn forever and ever.

Sign
G4592
σημεῖον
sēmeion
Thayer Definition:

1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known

There are other definitions under Thayers, but they tend to the theological.  This one (as most first listed definitions do) is the soundest and most natural meaning of the word. 

 

[Dave in Tenn]

Rose, I'm not interested in simply and soley having doctrinal arguments with "the church".  When I was in it, I hated the notion of a "hell", though all I could do was make my peace with it and live with the consequences.  I'm certain that I was not (and am not now) alone in that.  Even my last pastor came up with a sort of everlasting "hell-light" version that didn't include literal fire and torture that apparently he could make his peace and live with.  This is not a doctrinal disagreement like how often to have the Lord's Supper.  This is the very depths of Satan and affects every member--even those other-wise kind and upstanding folks.  They are as damaged and imprisoned by that notion as those that delight in the thought of eternal torture.  Nothing they can do (just as nothing I could do) comes without the stain of that belief, including loving others and feeding the poor.  I fed the poor, visited prisons, and did what I knew how to do to love others--I know from where I speak.

I ache for them to be free of that belief.  But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly.  "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship.  Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan. 

Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified.  They themselves will be saved, though as by fire.  Same as "us".  All in the order that Glorifies God. 

[indianabob]

Dave,
Good discussion.
I especially appreciate your final comments.
1 Cor 3:11-15 gives each of us the confidence to continue in faith, doubting nothing.

Thanks, Bob

[octoberose]

I ache for them to be free of that belief.  But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly.  "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship.  Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan. 

Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified.  They themselves will be saved, though as by fire.  Same as "us".  All in the order that Glorifies God.
[/quote]

You're right of course.  God frequently surprises with His mercy, even to us. All we can do is leave it in His hands.

[Wendy]

I agree Bob the discussions on here have been so helpful spiritual y.  Thanks to everyone contributing .I love reading them all .very up lifting to the soul 😍
God Bless
Wendy