Parables

[octoberose]

I'd like to take a sharp turn and change subjects.  I was talking with a friend and his one big objection to the Rich man and Lazarus being a parable is Lazarus being named. Ray addresses this when he talks about it and says that there are parables in the Old Testament that use proper names.  I can't find what he was referring to but I'm sure it's there somewhere. Can you think of a parable in the OT that uses someones name ?

[Musterseed]

I only know of one that I can remember Octoberose.

Paul said " Alexander the coppersmith did me dirty " or something like that
but there are a few more as Ray has attested to.

[mike kyner]

I'VE heard the proper name bit also but what difference would it make?

[octoberose]

Oh, it's common among , well, everyone who goes to typical churches to say that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable because they say it would be the only place in the Bible where a parable has someones name.   Why that matters to them is beyond me but it does and they believe in heaven and 'hell' based on that parable, that we know is not a parable. 
I might have found one in Ezekiel,  as soon as I find it again I'll let ou know !

[ralph]

Oh, it's common among , well, everyone who goes to typical churches to say that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable because they say it would be the only place in the Bible where a parable has someones name.   Why that matters to them is beyond me but it does and they believe in heaven and 'hell' based on that parable, that we know is not a parable. 
I might have found one in Ezekiel,  as soon as I find it again I'll let ou know !

Could it be The Parable of the Two Sisters, Oholah and Oholibah in Ezekiel 23?

Ezekiel 23:4
New King James Version
4 Their names: Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister;
They were Mine,
And they bore sons and daughters.
As for their names,
Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.

[octoberose]

Yes, that's it ! What do you think? It's starts out like a parable and then uses their names like they are actual people .

[octoberose]

But one is Samaria and one is Jerusalem.  Surely that's a parable.  And can you see what is happening now in the description of Jerusalem ?  I think I do.

[octoberose]

Oh, it's common among , well, everyone who goes to typical churches to say that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable because they say it would be the only place in the Bible where a parable has someones name.   Why that matters to them is beyond me but it does and they believe in heaven and 'hell' based on that parable,

Should say that we know IS. A PARABLE !

[indianabob]

=  Found on the web. A letter in rebuttal to a man who believes in hell and that the parable was literal.
Bob
=  =

We can eliminate the thought that God lies, because we both will agree that He doesn't. The question is, what did He say? Neither God nor Jesus ever said "hell." They inspired their writers to say Gehenna, tartarus, and hades. It's the King James translators (and the NIV people) who have translated these three different Greek words with the catch-all "hell." So as soon as you say, "there is a hell," you are already confusing the subject and demonstrating your weaknesses, which are imprecision, carelessness, and—I'm sorry—a touch of laziness. I don't mind that you're this way, except when you impinge upon the name and character of God, at which time you strain both my niceness and kindness.

Luke 16:19-31 (the Rich Man and Lazarus) is a parable. Jesus is in the midst of teaching five parables, beginning in 15:3 with the parable of the lost sheep. Following that are the parables of the lost coin, the prodigal son, the unjust administrator, and the Rich Man and Lazarus. The purpose of these parables is to teach the Pharisees a lesson about how they treat publicans and sinners. If you take the Rich Man parable literally (which apparently you do), you have to throw out everything the rest of the scriptures have to say about death. But not only that.

Is Lazarus literally sitting on the bosom on Abraham? Why not, if this is literal? In the parable, the Rich Man is damned because he was rich and wore fine things. Lazarus is sitting on Abraham's chest simply because he got bad things in this life. Think about this, Ross. There is nothing here about the gospel, nothing about faith. If you're going to make this parable the criteria for either being consciously tormented in flame or sitting on Abraham's chest for eternity, then you're going to have to base salvation on wealth, not faith. Well? What is the criteria for salvation in this context? Physical disadvantage only; there is nothing about faith here. So lets all wear grubby clothes and get dogs to lick our cold sores. We'll be on our way!

I'm curious. Since this is a five-fold parable, beginning in chapter 15, why don't you make the Prodigal Son in 15:11-32 literal? At the end of the parable, the father says, "This, my son, was dead." Why don't you take that death literally? Using your system of interpreting parables literally, you can use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that, after people die, they go off to a far country, spend all their money on whores and alcohol, then end up in a pig sty eating indigestible corn. Ross, I don't think you want to do this.

As for your verses from Matthew and Mark, Jesus is speaking of Gehenna, not hell. All you need to discover this for yourself is 1) a concordance, 2) a Bible dictionary, 3) the Bible itself, and 4) an ounce of common sense. The concordance will verify for you that Jesus said Gehenna, not hell. The Bible dictionary will tell you that Gehenna is a valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem, not some mythological torture chamber. The Bible will inform you (Isaiah 66:24) that Gehenna is the place of capital punishment in the thousand-year kingdom, where "all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem, says Yahweh. And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

Common sense will tell you that corpses neither writhe nor scream.

Let God be true, though every man a liar.

[octoberose]

Oh this is good.  Thanks for the rebuttal of this being literal. 

[Porter]

Can you think of a parable in the OT that uses someones name ?

Yes, pick a name, any name in the OT, as the story connected with it will most likely have some higher spiritual meaning to it.

1Co 10:1  Now I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, all passed through the sea,

1Co 10:2  and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

1Co 10:3  They all ate the same spiritual food,

1Co 10:4  and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ.

1Co 10:5  But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert.

1Co 10:6  Now these things became examples for us, so that we will not desire evil as they did.

1Co 10:7  Don't become idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and got up to play.

1Co 10:8  Let us not commit sexual immorality as some of them did, and in a single day 23,000 people fell dead.

1Co 10:9  Let us not tempt Christ as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes.

1Co 10:10  Nor should we complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer.

1Co 10:11  Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

1Co 10:12  Therefore, whoever thinks he stands must be careful not to fall!

Rom 15:4  For whatever was written before was written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we may have hope.

All the literal sins listed above that Israel committed have spiritual sins that are attached to them and are being committed by the Church in these "end times". 

https://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm Check out truth number 8 for a more detailed explanation from Ray.


Here's an email response from Ray regarding your question.


https://bible-truths.com/email16.htm

Dear Samuel:

Thank you for your email and comments.  Unfortunately, your arguments are just human, carnal arguments of the flesh with no Scriptural proof to back them up. Let me help you to follow things orderly and clearly and Scripturally:

[1] You state that Lazarus and the Rich man cannot be a parable because proper names are used. Is that supposed to be a "Scriptural PROOF," Samuel?
Here are some known parables with specific, particularly persons or personalities, but the question is, "Will you believe the Scriptures when I show you that you are wrong?
  Satan.....................................................Mark 4:15

The SON of man..................................Matt. 13:37

The Devil..............................................God the Father

King David...........................................II Sam. 12:17

Aholah, and Aholibah..........................Ezek. 23:1-4

The Good Samaritan...........................Luke 10:30-37.

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector...Luke 18:9-14.
  And he took up his PARABLE, and said, [1] BALAK, the king of [2] MOAB hath brought me from [3] ARAM, out of the mountains of the east, saying, come, curse me [4] JACOB and come defy [5] ISRAEL......Num. 23:7

There are FIVE proper names in just one verse of a parable!

[2] You say that Jesus did not say things like "There was a CERTAIN rich man" in His parables? Oh really?

The Parable of the Lost Coin:
  "And He [Jesus] said, 'A CERTAIN man..." (Luke 15:11)
  The Parable of the unjust Servant:
  "And He [Jesus] said also unto his disciples, 'There was a CERTAIN rich man'..."
  The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus:
  "There was a CERTAIN rich man..." (Luke 16:19)
  There are THREE PARABLES IN A ROW that Jesus spoke using the term

   
• "A CERTAIN man..."
• "A CERTAIN rich man...." and
• "a CERTAIN rich man...."

Certainly there is punishment and chastisement spoken of in this parable. I know of absolutely NO ONE (including myself) who teaches otherwise! Contrary to Christian teaching, it is not ETERNAL TORTURE, however.

What can I say, Samuel, your arguments are carnal human doctrines that have nothing to do with the Truth of the Scriptures. What is clear, Samuel, is that your proofs against Lazarus and the Rich man being a parable, actually prove that it IS A PARABLE!

May God be with you as you yield to His perfect will for your life,

Ray

[octoberose]

Porter, you must have the touch - how did you find all that ?  Thank you so much. 

[Porter]

Rose, several years ago I downloaded all of Ray's papers, emails and additional teachings to my pc. I then installed an app called AstroGrep which allows me to search for specific keywords within a file, folder, and subfolders simply by right-clicking the folder the files are in.  It works fairly well for the most part.

[Dennis Vogel]

Some should remember you can Google the BT site and this forum using this syntax: 

"search for text" (exact phrase with quotes or just all the words without quotes) site:bible-truths.com

Example: baptized water site:bible-truths.com

I use it all the time.