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[ZekeSr]

Has anyone ever come across one of “The Total Victory of Christ” videos on YouTube?  One popped up on the suggestions after I was watching a bible-truths video. I rarely bother to watch other videos because they always disappoint me or worse and I’ve grown too accustomed to what I consider mainstream heretical bible dribble. But this one was different. It paralleled Ray’s teaching on the lake of fire to a tee. It even expanded on it to some degree with reference to the fact that it may actually be translated from the Greek as a metaphorical refiner’s crucible where the impurities of silver and gold are removed. There are seven videos concerning the lake of fire. I’ve also seen one on Aion—pretty much the same as Ray. I would not be surprised to see some divergence from what we have learned on this site. But I have yet to find anything of consequence. This person believes in universal reconciliation, and all will be saved. I’m interested to hear your opinions or knowledge of this site. Is there anything I missed?
I couldn't paste the link and get it to stick, but you should be able to find it with very little trouble
Mike

Refined in the Lake of Fire | The Meaning of Hell Fire (youtube.com)

[Musterseed]

I just watched it so here is what I gleaned from it.

I will repeat a couple of statements that were made. He said,

1)” to return them to the pure state that they were originally created to be.”

My understanding is that humanity was created (originally) with carnal minds
and enmity against God.

2) He said” God is going to do this without violating anybody’s free will”

FREE WILL IS A MYTH, man has no free will.

I stopped watching after I heard this. It’s just more of the rot that’s on YouTube
They all start out sounding so wonderful don’t they.

2 Tim. 3:13…. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse
                      deceiving and being deceived.  (and Rev.22:11)


There is always some truth mixed in with the lies.They blaspheme our Lord.

In Christ, Pamela

[indianabob]

I agree with Pamela

My view is:
WE die.
Then our Lord returns to resurrect all previous believers such as Abe, Issac, Jacob, David, the 12 who will rule.
Those folks live through the 1000 years governing the survivors of the Trib. all under Christ.
Then the Great White throne or judgment seat of Christ where the books are opened and folks are judged on how they lived.
If some didn't make it to the book, into the Lake of Fire they go.
To be reserved dead until the consumation, 1Cor 15:24   

= =
As to a reason for the 2nd death in LoF. The new earth is a reward to those whose acts were good and thus in the book of life. The 2nd death is a means to exclude the really bad actors, setting them aside temporarily.

[Dave in Tenn]

I'm always a little leery even discussing "free will" because the term is usually without a definition.  People can say they believe in free will simply out of ignorance or laziness when what they truly believe is the sovereignty of God. 

That said, I "feel" you on the "disappointment or worse".  If we are focused on theology, we have to admit that there are many, many flavors of so-called "universalism".  Through that theological lens, it is no less a babel than any other segment of "the church".  Evidence is very near. 

I mentioned my sister recently.  I joined a face-book group that she is involved in.  It is pretty much the exact type of forum that BT set out so intentionally to NOT become.  Everybody has an opinion on everything and most of it seems to flow out of either their "former" christian experience or as a reaction to it.  At times it's thought-provoking, at times edifying, at times (way too often) stupefying, and at times (many times) so reminiscent of what I do NOT miss about church doctrine that I can see no difference at all, and it "feels" like blasphemy--and likely is.  I've put it this way before--there are a lot of people who haven't been "out of her" far enough or long enough, and too many of them are teaching. 

So what's my stance?  I don't focus on theological agreement.  I'm so incredibly at peace with what I've come to see in scripture.  And that "peace" is what I want, not "being right" or "certitude" or "debate" and not even "agreement".  Everybody is wrong about 'something' because God is too big for our boxes.  Understanding is not equal.--some 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold.  Everybody gets what they get.  Nobody can be convinced of anything other by argument, clever or otherwise.  Only God un-closes eyes, and no man can convert another from carnally minded to spiritually minded.  Can't even do it for himself/herself.  I'm happy and feel some kinship and meeting of mind if their "faith" is optimistic and realistic...the rest of it, they are welcome to.  Lord knows I don't want much of it.  I haven't made any friends, though I have had a person or two ask me to "follow" them.  I don't want to be unequally yoked even WITH believers. 

So, the shorter answer:  No, I've not heard of this channel before.  He's one of quite a number that I both have--and I'm very sure have not--heard of.  My YouTube algorithm is almost blissfully unaware of my "interest" in "theology" and just keeps showing me music education/appreciation, history, and my hobbies and leaves me be otherwise.  When I do watch or engage with a BT video, I normally see an uptick in atheist and "deconstructionist" content, though a few "church history" things and "comparative denominations" things may sneak in and catch my attention.  But things usually settle down after a while.

Sorry for the rant.   

 



               

[Porter]

I engaged in a discussion with a universalist mystic several months back, and I'm not gonna lie, he fooled me good. I started beliving some of the lies he was saying because he talked with such eloquence and intelligence. Like Pamela said, he mixed truth with lies and it was very convincing - probably one of the most convincing liars I've ever come across.

It wasn't until I realized that he had been passively accusing me of "literalizing" the bible and beliving in "legalism" that I finally stopped engaging him and following him, but not after I told him I knew what he was doing. He continued to indirectly accuse me and boy I began to hate him. I'm still a little sore about it, but my wounds are slowly healing.

The good part about all this is I learned way more about the law of Moses and law of Christ because of my discussions with this mystic. But the best part was the fact I learned I'm not a teacher and that I need to be more careful with what I say. I think I prefer to be a student as that is more my speed. Students are allowed to make mistakes, whereas teachers must be perfect in what they say.

I believe Satan and by extention his children are cunning and subtle, and the moment I think that I can't be deceived is the same moment that I am being deceived. Even to his children is Satan cunning and subtle so they can't know the truth.

What we have here at BT is very unique in my opinion. I've seen the spiritual truths seperate many and it genuinley makes me sad because of the incredibly good news and better things contained in the spirit. It's like a taste of Jesus.

I've studied many beliefs through the testimony of others, especially the beliefs found in universalism. Many of their beliefs are tame and loveable even. However, when it comes to "free will" and "the problem of evil" and parables in general, it convinces me that I was never looking for God to begin with.

[Daddysgirl.2]

I just watched it so here is what I gleaned from it.

I will repeat a couple of statements that were made. He said,

1)” to return them to the pure state that they were originally created to be.”

My understanding is that humanity was created (originally) with carnal minds
and enmity against God.

2) He said” God is going to do this without violating anybody’s free will”

FREE WILL IS A MYTH, man has no free will.

I stopped watching after I heard this. It’s just more of the rot that’s on YouTube
They all start out sounding so wonderful don’t they.

2 Tim. 3:13…. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse
                      deceiving and being deceived.  (and Rev.22:11)


There is always some truth mixed in with the lies.They blaspheme our Lord.

In Christ, Pamela

"The best lie is one closest to the truth."

[ZekeSr]

I just watched it so here is what I gleaned from it.

I will repeat a couple of statements that were made. He said,

1)” to return them to the pure state that they were originally created to be.”

My understanding is that humanity was created (originally) with carnal minds
and enmity against God.

2) He said” God is going to do this without violating anybody’s free will”

FREE WILL IS A MYTH, man has no free will.

I stopped watching after I heard this. It’s just more of the rot that’s on YouTube
They all start out sounding so wonderful don’t they.

2 Tim. 3:13…. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse
                      deceiving and being deceived.  (and Rev.22:11)


There is always some truth mixed in with the lies.They blaspheme our Lord.

In Christ, Pamela

Pam, you have reminded me of something that Ray had said quite often about scripture… that we must “pay attention to all the words”. I guess it holds true with everything everywhere in life, both written or spoken. However, from my perspective (and mine alone), it didn’t matter. I’ve long since grown past those statements that I missed. I was so intrigued by the primary core of the video backing up Ray’s teaching on the lake of fire that the underlying statements flew right over my head. I’m not excusing myself. I’m thanking you for bringing it to my attention. I’m surprised, as I usually catch those things. I’m glad I put it to the test on this forum. With that being said, I don’t believe the man is lying in the pure sense. He knows what he knows… as do we all. And within the confines of what he knows, he has done his homework. It reminds me to always stay humble in the gift of any knowledge we’ve been granted. It can be a long bumpy road from perceived certainty to actual fact.

Which brings me to your response, Dave.

I'm always a little leery even discussing "free will" because the term is usually without a definition.  People can say they believe in free will simply out of ignorance or laziness when what they truly believe is the sovereignty of God. 

That said, I "feel" you on the "disappointment or worse".  If we are focused on theology, we have to admit that there are many, many flavors of so-called "universalism".  Through that theological lens, it is no less a babel than any other segment of "the church".  Evidence is very near. 

I mentioned my sister recently.  I joined a face-book group that she is involved in.  It is pretty much the exact type of forum that BT set out so intentionally to NOT become.  Everybody has an opinion on everything and most of it seems to flow out of either their "former" christian experience or as a reaction to it.  At times it's thought-provoking, at times edifying, at times (way too often) stupefying, and at times (many times) so reminiscent of what I do NOT miss about church doctrine that I can see no difference at all, and it "feels" like blasphemy--and likely is.  I've put it this way before--there are a lot of people who haven't been "out of her" far enough or long enough, and too many of them are teaching. 

So what's my stance?  I don't focus on theological agreement.  I'm so incredibly at peace with what I've come to see in scripture.  And that "peace" is what I want, not "being right" or "certitude" or "debate" and not even "agreement".  Everybody is wrong about 'something' because God is too big for our boxes.  Understanding is not equal.--some 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold.  Everybody gets what they get.  Nobody can be convinced of anything other by argument, clever or otherwise.  Only God un-closes eyes, and no man can convert another from carnally minded to spiritually minded.  Can't even do it for himself/herself.  I'm happy and feel some kinship and meeting of mind if their "faith" is optimistic and realistic...the rest of it, they are welcome to.  Lord knows I don't want much of it.  I haven't made any friends, though I have had a person or two ask me to "follow" them.  I don't want to be unequally yoked even WITH believers. 

I remember my involvement with the World Wide Church, when I thought I’d found it for sure. And the strange miracle which quite literally blocked me from entering any further into the depths of that church—something I described in my very first post. This was followed by decades of pretty much just being out there in the world. And here I am now with Bible Truths.

Porter, I hear what you’re saying, brother.

The good part about all this is I learned way more about the law of Moses and law of Christ because of my discussions with this mystic. But the best part was the fact I learned I'm not a teacher and that I need to be more careful with what I say. I think I prefer to be a student as that is more my speed. Students are allowed to make mistakes, whereas teachers must be perfect in what they say.

I believe Satan and by extension his children are cunning and subtle, and the moment I think that I can't be deceived is the same moment that I am being deceived. Even to his children is Satan cunning and subtle so they can't know the truth.

What we have here at BT is very unique in my opinion. I've seen the spiritual truths seperate many and it genuinley makes me sad because of the incredibly good news and better things contained in the spirit. It's like a taste of Jesus.

I've studied many beliefs through the testimony of others, especially the beliefs found in universalism. Many of their beliefs are tame and loveable even. However, when it comes to "free will" and "the problem of evil" and parables in general, it convinces me that I was never looking for God to begin with.

While I might check out some more of this man’s videos sometime due to a certain inquisitiveness, I have no intention of delving into various forms of universalism or anything else for that matter. And like you, I am no teacher. I have been given revelations in scripture that I realize to be true and yet have never seen or heard anywhere else. Nevertheless, I cannot express them openly. I know where I am. I know where I’ve been led.


Thank you all. This has been quite helpful for me.

Mike

[Dennis Vogel]

About a year ago YouTube decided 'universalism' is something I'm interested in and found about a dozen universal channels for me.

One of the universalism channels was devoted to disproving certain L Ray Smith's teachings and I watched several of these videos and foolishly commented in a few of them.

Watching these other channels I was always able to find errors in their teachings with a few exceptions like Tent Maker.

Ray received many thousands of emails over the years challenging his teachings. A few were legitimate minor points and Ray had me correct the text. And some were just typo's that got past myself and others that helped with the text proofing before publishing.

I don't know of any other universalism site that received even a fraction of the scrutiny in the emails/comments Ray received.

[Musterseed]

1 John 4:17….. As He is, so are we in the world.

Mark 13:13 and Luke 21:17…. You will be hated by all for My name sake……….

From …. Where we got the Bible, Ray writes
2 Tim. 3:16… All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.

“ All Scripture, okay.  One of the definitions of prophecy or prophesying, is inspired teaching, singing and writing, it’s prophesying.

Prophesying does NOT mean solely predicting the future. Any singing, teaching, or
writing is prophesying.
See 2 Peter 1: 19.

ANY SCRIPTURE.If it’s inspired of God it’s a spirit of prophecy, even if it’s a song that you sing, [ the psalms are songs, they are prophecy]. If it’s inspired of God it’s prophecy.

 You got that? That’s an important point because you need to remember as you study the Scripture from here on out.” Ray.



So we got teaching, and writing and singing 🎶 ( a New Song) on Bible- Truths.com
The Title stands up to its name , inspired by God. That makes it prophecy.

Wow 😮 I just learned this today about the Psalms and prophecy not about predicting the future, that makes sense now. Awesome.

Yeah, Ray took a lot of  hate because they despise the word of God.

Isa 30: 12-14,, Isa. 30: 8-11, Ezekiel 13 and 1 Sam.9:9.

I want to paraphrase something Ray said in His TEACHING on The sovereignty of God and Him repenting of creating humanity. That’s a great study by the way.😁
He said something like” who wants to attribute these meanings ( talking about
a definition of the word repent) to God and not expect a lightening bolt to come
through the ceiling?  Woe, it will be ill with them.

God taught the angels to sing. And they all sang together. Keep the unity of the Spirit.
In Christs name , Amen.

[Musterseed]

I need to make a correction on a statement I made.I left out a word.

I said

Wow 😮 I just learned this today about the Psalms and prophecy not SOLELY
about predicting the future,,,,,,,,,,,

Sorry, my bad, I left out the word solely.

God Bless You All
Pamela💕

[octoberose]

I’m late to the party - What is a Universalist Mystic ?    And I read other peoples stuff and because of the education I’ve received here for over a decade I can weed out what misses the mark.  And when I comment on free will being a fallacy or all being reconciled to God, of course I get a lot of push back - but Not always. Sometimes I think my little contribution helps their understanding.  I still think what we do matters - it’s’ not that God is not Sovereign, it’s that He has let us take part . I want to take part in the great good news -  why would I not want that ?   This is a group that has spent , what, almost two decades trying to get God’s Word out ? I think that’s wonderful.  I’m so grateful.  Why would we not want to spread the news , no matter what the push back is ?

[Dave in Tenn]

I share.  Honest I do!  I even shared with my mother and got pushback.  Lol Not a surprise at all.

I even shared a little both with links and comments in that Facebook group.  And I may occasionally continue to   Who knows what may come of that, but it's against the flow there.  It's disappointing because, though I might can expect some minor disagreement or differences of emphasis, I get blind sided by serious disagreement.  Anyway, many are called few chosen and He is the chooser.

[Dennis Vogel]

Yea, I've shared BT with a few close school friends on Facebook with indifference returned.

BTW, it's been over two decades since BT was started in August, 2000. That's 24 years ago.

Here's what our website looked like in 2001 - May be slow to come up as archive.org was hacked recently.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010720170739/http://bible-truths.com/

[Musterseed]

Excerpts from winning souls.

It’s all about motivation.If your motivation is carnal , God will not back you.
Yes I know, all of you are saying,” but my motivation is to show them God’s
Truths.” Yes, sure, I understand, BUT THEY DONT WANT TO HEAR GODS TRUTHS,
and you already know this so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them
taste your salt and see you light ( Matt. 5:1,14,16)and admire your good works and 
perchance they will even praise God for your new- found humility. ( caps Rays)

Salt does not make any noise and light does not argue scriptures. Light or salt
does not make any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere.

How to demonstrate your knowledge of the truth.

1 Peter 2:11-12….. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul,having your conversation
( GK. conduct) honest, ( GK. honorable) among the Gentiles: that whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works ( not your clever Bible
arguments,or new- found knowledge ) which they shall behold , glorify God in the day of visitation.

Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—
If not in this life then in Judgement.

Me…. Free will and the sovereignty of God cannot be understood by a carnal mind.
They have been made blind and can’t see. And it’s ALL OF GOD.💕

Preaching, teaching , singing ,by carnal minded men is of the world.
Love not the world.

Ray…. I’m asked,” why I teach the truths of God if all is of God and God does all the choosing and drawing. (John 6:44 and 15:16) ? Because that is how God operates.
God uses the foolishness ( GK. Stupidity) of preaching as one of His means by which He communicates with His elect.

Certainly we should all follow Peter’s admonition to,,,, be ready to always give an answer to every man that ASKS you a reason of the hope that is in you
with meekness and fear( reverence) 1 Peter 3:15.
But God has not called all to be teachers. ( 1Cor. 12:29}

I have never been asked a reason for my hope in me, but I have foolishly
offered it to my family who are not believers. The pushback was profound
And so was the pain of thinking I failed God. But hey, no pain , no gain right.
We learn and then rejoice in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Porter]

Rose, a mystic, is one who believes in mysticism.

mysticism
noun
mys·​ti·​cism ˈmi-stə-ˌsi-zəm
1
: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics
2
: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (such as intuition or insight)
3
a
: vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
b
: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power

The fact that the person also believed in the salvation of all made it hard for me to see what he was about initially. The guy even believed the bible was one giant parable, as we do. The thing with this mystic was that he seemed to value the knowledge (however false some of his knowledge was) of Scripture above all.

I share what I've learned here all the time. Though I try to be careful with the whom I share them with. I try to find people who are genuinely looking for answers. Occasionally, I'll point them to Ray's papers; otherwise, I try my best to give an answer for the hope in me.