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[aktikt]

Hi all,

Something has bothered me from time to time and maybe one of you all can explain. 

In Matthew 24, there is a lot about very visible troubles if they are literal.  For example, "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."  And then there's this: "How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation,unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Now, given all these things that would presumably not being done in a corner and have the whole world on edge.  How then can we have this: "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man."  So, how can they be oblivious of the above events such that they are marrying and are given in marriage. It seems like it's hard to be oblivious to events that are rocking the world to such an extent that you're like yeah let's get married next week.

Thanks,
Josh

[Porter]

I had written out this considerable response to your questions (surprise!), but perhaps it'd be more productive if we could start a dialogue. So I have to ask this first: is there a way to determine from the Scriptures that these troubles are or are not literal and visible?

Please understand, I'm not trying to be dismissive about what we are seeing in the world. Me personally, I'm more interested in the things we can't see with our physical eyes, and the things we can't hear with our physical ears and the things we can't understand with our physical heart. If any are interested in what is literally and visibly happening in the world, I completely understand that. I'm interested in those things too, but in a different way, I suppose.

[aktikt]

Hi Porter,

Ray's paper, "TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD" is vitally important for understanding the Scriptures.   The first principle in it is this:

TRUTH NUMBER 1

1 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
2 "It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies] ; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies] ..." (I Cor. 15:44).
3 "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY..." (Phil. 3:21).
4 "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first] , and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward] ?" (John 3:12).

The sequence of God's plan of salvation for mankind is most important-First is the physical and then comes the spiritual. 

So I have to ask this first: is there a way to determine from the Scriptures that these troubles are or are not literal and visible?

It seems that both the literal and spiritual meaning could both be meant.  But my question is still valid, whether the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24 is physical or spiritual. How can someone in such physical or spiritual troubles be focused on getting married?  It seems like their priority would be trying to eke through another day.

The one idea that comes to mind is that those who are seeking marriage are the wicked, like those in Noah's time. Perhaps they’re unaware of the turmoil surrounding them, consumed by their own desires inspite of the troubles.

Josh

[Porter]

So I only partially understand this seemingly negative connotation being attached to the idea of those marrying and being given in marriage as in the days of Noah. Perhaps this has something to do with it, or at least it may be one aspect of it.

Mat 22:23  The same day some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to Him and questioned Him:
Mat 22:24  "Teacher, Moses said, if a man dies, having no children, his brother is to marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.
Mat 22:25  Now there were seven brothers among us. The first got married and died. Having no offspring, he left his wife to his brother.
Mat 22:26  The same happened to the second also, and the third, and so to all seven.
Mat 22:27  Then last of all the woman died.
Mat 22:28  Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven? For they all had married her."
Mat 22:29  Jesus answered them, "You are deceived, because you don't know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:31  Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read what was spoken to you by God:
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead (the oblivious), but of the living."
Mat 22:33  And when the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

And when are the Elect resurrected?

Joh 5:24  "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment (in the lake of fire) but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25  "I assure you: An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

I checked multiple translations regarding the phrase "and now is here" from John 5:25, and they all say the same thing. So then I asked, what does spiritual resurrection have to do with those who marry spiritually and are given in marriage spiritually?

1Co 7:32  I want you to be without concerns. An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord.
1Co 7:33  But a married man is concerned about the things of the world [For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. - 1Jn_2:16 ]--how he may please his wife--
1Co 7:34  and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is concerned about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the things of the world--how she may please her husband.

I can literally and physically be married, but that does not necessarily mean 1Co 7:33 is spiritually true in my case. Paul is using the physical example of marriage to teach the Elect about some spiritual wickedness “in high places” within us all. It has a lot to do with spiritual sexual immorality and spiritual adultery and not having faith in Jesus, but instead trusting ourselves. Ray covered this extensively in his papers.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

You said those marrying and being given in marriage may be unaware, and I think that is part of it. The reason being, the spiritually dead don't know anything spiritual. Those who are spiritually resurrected have been made aware of what they were once oblivious to. What are they being made aware of? I believe they are being made aware of their judgment and everything that comes with that, i.e., trouble, tribulation, affliction, persecution etc. Judgment brings us into the light, so our spiritual deeds may be exposed and corrected.

Consider the animals aboard the ark. I'm sure it must have seemed like a nightmare for Noah and his family to be surrounded by all these wild animals doing what wild animals do. It's like Jonah and the whale, or Jesus in the heart of the earth for 3 days and nights. Until we realize we are the same as these wild animals, these wild beasts, we will remain spiritually dead.

I'll stop there. Thoughts?

[Musterseed]

Hi Josh,
My sister asked me a question today.
She asked, “ why can’t people see what’s happening in the world” they walk around like zombies, are they stupid? “

My answer was, “ they are blind and the blind can’t see. God has put obscurity
Into their hearts so they cannot know what He is doing .


ECC.3:11….. He has made everything fitting in its season; however He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may not find out His work that which God
does.

He put obscurity in our hearts , not eternity.

God will wake them up from this nightmare in the morning.Shh! Let them sleep.

And yes it’s the wicked that marry and eat and drink as in the days of NOAH.
See Rapture Paper.

I am not sure if this was your question but if you type obscurity in the search engine you will find gold nuggets . Hope it helps.

In Christ , Pamela

[aktikt]

Pamela and Porter,

Ok, I think I've got it.  What's being said is not just about marriage but eating and drinking.   "Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.". 1Cor 10:7 could be in mind here.  So, from a spiritual perspective the people are worshipping other gods. They're just seeking pleasure.  The wicked are having a good time (partying - marriages are parties) while there's misery and suffering around them. 

I guess my surprise came from the truly immense troubles that would be impacting the earth at the time of the "Great Tribulation".  That they would oblivious of such great disasters is what made me think that this couldn't be right. But, I guess this has been happening through the ages and the greatest tribulation of all time will be no different. 

Thanks for your help,
Josh

[Musterseed]

Woohoo! 
I mean Praise God, you got it Josh.

Humanity are all carnal until they are all purified in the Lake Of Fire.
O come Lord Jesus, it’s insane out there.

Good find on that scripture by the way. Match Exodus 32:6.

God Bless You All in Christ.

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi all,

Something has bothered me from time to time and maybe one of you all can explain. 

In Matthew 24, there is a lot about very visible troubles if they are literal.  For example, "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."  And then there's this: "How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation,unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Now, given all these things that would presumably not being done in a corner and have the whole world on edge.  How then can we have this: "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man."  So, how can they be oblivious of the above events such that they are marrying and are given in marriage. It seems like it's hard to be oblivious to events that are rocking the world to such an extent that you're like yeah let's get married next week.

Thanks,
Josh

Hi Josh.  There's a bit to unpack in your post, so bear with me if you want.

To my mind it doesn't much matter if these "things" you quoted--You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places...--are "literal" or "spiritual".  What they ARE are general conditions which may happen any time and are NOT specific to "the end".  Indeed. if there is anything specific to "the end" in those portions is that "men will come saying".  I guarantee you, THAT prophecy has been extremely well fulfilled.

The other portions you referenced have, I believe, a more specific reference.  Many people believe these "sayings" were fulfilled in 70 AD.  There is certainly some truth in that.  The sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple marked the absolute end of the "Old Covenant" with sacrifices, even though the "New Covenant" began at His crucifixion--the new covenant in His blood.  And this is where some spiritual discernment needs to take place, because the words of Jesus ARE Spirit!  There are still people following an (at least modified version of the) Old Covenant.  And, for them, this "destruction" and "tribulation" is yet to be realized in their own lives, or perhaps is underway and not yet complete. 

Ray put it this way:  Preterists reject the future.  Futurists reject the past.  Both positions reject the present. 

And I reject the notion that the "literal" isn't Spiritual and that the "Spiritual" isn't real.  Indeed, ONLY the Spiritual is REAL, no matter a damn what's happening in the physical, or literal, or in so-called IRL.


On to Noah.   

I don't doubt that there were some "wicked" mixed in with the population that was swept away.  But the "evil" that was always and only on the people's minds continually was that use of "evil" which has no moral bias.  I've lived that life, and probably you have too--or at least tasted it.

H7451
רעה / רע
ra‛ / râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)

ra‛    râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
Total KJV occurrences: 664




So here's a big little thought.  SPIRITUALLY, the flood represents the Judgement on the world, which is only and always thinking about "evil" and all that brings about.  We believe that this "judgement" on the world is a good thing FOR the world.  For if the whole world is to be saved, can you think of a better list of things to be saved FROM than what populates that definition?  What a glorious day it is and was and will be when the light of this glorious gospel shines on the world and His Spirit is poured out on all flesh.

If that's the case, then I think what you said about "the Days of Noah" is the right approach to understanding.  They's just folks, doing their things.  They have some inner inkling that things could be "different", but "many have come saying..." and snatched even that away.

And THAT stuff's been going on since forever ago, no matter what current events they were watching on TV or how much history was in their vellum text-books.

I probably didn't answer your question directly, but maybe these tangential thoughts can help.