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Author Topic: Before Eve took a bite  (Read 9291 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Before Eve took a bite
« on: September 05, 2006, 07:03:53 PM »

Ray pointed out the similarity of these 2 scriptures and shows the "original sin" actually had spiritual sins committed before it was consumated by the actual act of eating the fruit. Isn't this how sin works in our own lives as well?


Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Look at the sequence of events, the thought process before the act and compare it with the verse below;

1Jo 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (saw the tree was good for food) , and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes) and the pride of life (to make one wise) , is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Here is more from James;

Jam 1:14  But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.
 
Jam 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
Jam 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
 
Jam 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the Father of lights with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

His Peace to all,

Joe 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 07:07:32 PM by hillsbororiver »
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chuckusa

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 08:02:34 PM »

Joe,

So thats really all you need, to explain how the lusts that we feel, are really the same as the physical acts of sin... that they are really one in the same and can't be seperated.

Why were we called to this higher standard after the new covenant? I'm not sure how to explain that to someone.

Thanks Joe,
Chuck
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 09:02:54 PM »

Hi Chuck,

That could be a tough sell, explaining this to someone who may not have ears to hear.


The Law, the commandments written in stone (plus the Mosaic Law) were physical, even carnal;

 Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The keeping of the physical law is a death sentence, a sure ticket to the Lake Of Fire, remember the Lord's mission is, was, will be the gathering of His elect, the firstfruits, this can only be done through His Spirit. The carnal man might possibly make it without breaking physical laws, but no man can be true to the New Covenant, the Spiritual Law without Christ in Him. Jesus was always speaking to His chosen, first the apostles, then all the elect through the generations until His return.

Here is what He says;
     

Mat 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
 
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is only possible through Him,

Joe
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Beloved

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 09:57:18 PM »

Hi Chuck and Joe

Being human this topic is easier to talk about then to actually live through sometimes.

For the beast within us there are three things in this vast world, and only three — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life; briefly summarized they are : Appetite, Avarice, and Ambition.

It is a forgone conclusion that All of the inventions, creations, and contrivances of man are in existence today to cater to these Three things.

Everybody has desires of one kind or another, and that really can be quite natural. These desires are not always evil. But when we confront evil we are told to resist it.  Dealig with our desires can feel like we are walking on a tightrope. We are often unsteady, unsure and wobbly

Even in the things of the spirit one must be keen to discern betweenyour own desire and the desire of the Spirit. That is where the battle lies, and that is where sin is born. the Desire conceives and breeds sin, while Sin matures and gives birth to death

The sriptures state

(Jam 1:13 KJVR) 
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

(Jam 1:14 KJVR) 
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

(Jam 1:15 KJVR) 
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Every person who is tempted as they are beguiled and allured by their  own desires

There is no mention to the state of hunger when Adam and Eve were hanging out by the tree but in direct contrast,  after fasting for forty days Jesus truly felt severe hunger pangs and was confronted with the same three temptations that Eve encountered.

It was at the peak of being physically famished that the Tempter came to Him.  Jesus however did not drop down from the high and holy thought of God, into the reasoning of the human mind. He did not descend in consciousness from the Son of God, to the sons of men.

The voice cunningly suggested to jesus   “You know who you really are turn these stones into bread!"  "If you are the Son of God, go ahead and do it!  Use your sonship to fill your belly! Use it to satisfy your own needs and desires!"

Jesus quickly discerned that wily Devil and knew how to nip that idea in the bud before it had time to blossom. He got to it before it had time to conceive by entering into union with His will. When desire and will become one, sin is conceived — it makes a baby called sin!

Jesus answered out of the depths of His spirit, "It is written — man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" (Mat. 4:4). A direct quote from the Torah in Deut 8:3

He was able to say to Himself and to Satan  — if my Father tells me to turn stones into bread I shall do so. But if the voice is any other than my Father's voice, I must do only those things which I hear from my Father.

It was that union of His will with the Father’s will that ended the temptation! His will in union with His Father's desire conceived and brought forth the baby of Righteousness. When He left the wilderness …He was equipped and ready to complete His mission here on earth.

Every temptation of the Devil comes to us through the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. There are no others. Not for Adam and Eve, not for Jesus, and not for us. The physical act of sin is always the result of the carnal mind of man.

Beloved
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angie

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 10:44:05 PM »

Hi Beloved

Quote
When desire and will become one, sin is conceived — it makes a baby called sin!

Excellent analogy  :D Good post

Angie
x
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 11:08:01 PM »

Agreed,

That is a great paraphrase of James 1:14 & James 1:15

 
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chuckusa

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2006, 12:39:37 AM »

Beloved,

Great addition, thanks sister!

Chuck
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2006, 01:14:48 PM »

Thanks for all of the nice the comments but I had these in my study notes, I do not remember when or where they came from. They do help me understand the sin process.

There was a book written in the 15th century by a brother Lawrence, simple monk. When asked to be Pope he declined. He said he already had everything he wanted.  His books is called Practicing His Presence .  I read that and one by Frank laubach about the same time and it helped me when I became interested in really trying to keep my focus on God.

To me finding the Will of God is sometimes the problem. I liked what Ray said at the conference... always look for the "right" thing to do and do it. 

Beloved     ;D ;D ;D
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YellowStone

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2006, 01:15:21 PM »


Beloved so graciously wrote:  :)

He was able to say to Himself and to Satan  — if my Father tells me to turn stones into bread I shall do so.
But if the voice is any other than my Father's voice, I must do only those things which I hear from my Father. [/b]

But if the voice is any other than my Father's voice..... Wow this is awesome! Talk about keeping it simple, Beloved these words are about as profound as I have read for sometime. The number of times that I have balanced and couter-balanced justification for decisions I need to make or have made are uncountable. However, what other justification is there if not for the simple truth of our Father's voice.

Joe, thanks so much for starting this thread, and everyone one else for their loving words.

Darren
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Lightseeker

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2006, 03:47:12 PM »

Joe,

A great teaching.  But there is also another leg which I've heard that helps to add a third leg to the stool of this teaching.

The verses you pointed out reveal the fall of Eve and all that is in the world.  But the third leg of this teaching is the fact that the 3 temptations of Jesus in the wilderness, show the path of victory which He took to overcome "all that caused Eve" to sin, and "all that is in the world."  

 
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angie

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2006, 04:07:21 PM »

Lightseeker

Hi Dee

Quote
The verses you pointed out reveal the fall of Eve and all that is in the world.

Is this the same 'fall' that churchgoing christians refer to when alluding to their teaching of  'Adam and Eve were made perfect' up until then?
 
Angie
x
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 04:09:26 PM by angie »
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Lightseeker

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2006, 09:04:54 PM »

Angie, Bobby

How sad I find it to be, that, in an attempt to add to the apparent joy you've all had concerning the truth Joe shared from Ray, that you've both made it an attempt to discredit my post because of a lack of understanding.

No Angie, I'm not talking about the churchianity belief of a "fall from perfection". And no Bobby I'm not talking about "falling from a tree."  In reading scripture and Rays teaching let me share with you what Ray knows that you apparently don't.

Quote
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING!


ROM 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

There was a fall in the Garden and it was a falling short of the glory of God according to Ray.  So if you all have a problem with that ONE single word perhaps you should reconsider and reread Rays article.  I thought it had more to do with the responsiblity of God for making us the way we were so we would end up sinning. A concept I've believed for 25 years.  I hope this post helps clear up any misunderstanding. 

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2006, 11:01:51 PM »

Dee,

You have to understand that most people when they hear someone refer to a 'fall',
that involves Eve in the garden,
they will think you are referring to the popular teaching of the church.
We are here seeking to understand the Truth,
we should not be bothered by a brother or sister's help,
to make something clear. 
We need to seek to be in agreement here.

Amo 3:3  Can two walk together unless they are agreed?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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angie

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2006, 12:02:32 AM »

Dee,

I HAVE read that article of Ray's but quite honestly I saw no correlation between that and the statement you made. You specifically said Eve and nothing at all about the glory of God. As far as discrediting your post goes, I simply asked the question because of the way it was worded, which sounded almost exactly to what a churchgoing christian friend of mine says all the time.

I don't think I have a 'problem' with any single word and don't understand why you should get so defensive about a question. Is that not what a forum is all about? You say you have held a concept for 25 years. I have held my beliefs for about 10 months. I have HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of questions that hopefully I will get at least some of answered. Im sure I'm not alone here in that respect.

I believe we are all here to learn, to pass on what we know, and yes, to also stand corrected when we err, knowing that it is done in love and faith. I hope you believe this also.

Peace  and blessings bother
Angie
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Lightseeker

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2006, 06:07:20 PM »

Bobby, Kat, Angie,

Thank you all for your understanding. I must admit your responses not only pleased me, but admittedly surprized me.

Bobby, I don't have these things down well enough to post a link.  It always amazes me when you guys do.  As I've said before, most of the teachings I've read here aren't new to me.  I started studying them before computers, and have reprinted books, phamplets and monthly newsletters from authors writing a hundred years ago concerning  these subjects.  The www has truly made it easy for you guys to quickly go through, what was a long learning curve for me.  And I admit I still hold a lot of teaching from all of those authors who didn't totally agree with each other or with Ray today.  I'm a mixed bag and understand that, but I've tried to remain faithful to the 'rules of the forum'.

I've enjoyed being here, but maybe I do see things too differently from Ray's pupils.  I've often thought if Ray and I were sitting accross the table we would get along better than I have here. 

Anyway thanks again for the posts.

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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2006, 07:53:44 PM »

Some day hopefully the technology will allow for real time and face to face forum. We seem to keep having these misunderstandings. I know very well because I too fell in to this trap not too long ago and got bent out of shape with Mercie

We all want to fully understand and grasp the basis for our belief so we can share them with others. We have people here on this forum and viewers that are at different stages of growth. Some of us may still have man made beliefs that they have not let go. 

It is the Faith of Christ that brought us where we are. We need to let Him work on us so we can all develope more patience and kindness towards each other.

Since my own little fiasco  I now try to ask myself before I post " How can I serve this person that I am replying to and am also serving the forum viewers".  I also try to think about how Paul dealth with all the "pagan and illiterate" people (compared to his being a scholar)  It seems that he always tried his best to be humble and gentle.   

I do not think that what is being said is always that bad ....but how it appears to the reader.

Writing can be so blunt sometimes.   ::)

Lets use more Please and Pardon me etc and .........maybe a lot more smilies.

 ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D ;D ;D

Beloved
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chuckusa

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2006, 08:40:24 PM »

Beloved,

That was beautiful...I mean that. To admit ones wrong doing, is truly of God.

We also have to remember that an issue that means nothing to us, may mean a great deal to someone else. I for one don't want to second guess God by dismissing, what may appear to be, someone with a lesser understanding, yet who may NEED an answer to their question, as God has directed them.

If it is true, that the faith of Christ brought us here (and I DO believe that) then it follows that we should consider this fact when addressing someone with less than due respect. I believe in correction, but only gentle correction, unless of course stronger action is warrented to protect, but again only as directed by God. In my experience, people who are here for intentions other than good, will soon tire of their inability to cause division or strife, and will leave on their own accord eventually. Consistent and God centered gentle opposition to ones who do works out of darkness, I feel is the best way to deal with these issues.

For myself, I questioned the concept of Hell 35 years ago as a child  in Sunday school, and NEVER believed that God would burn anyone in a fire for all eternity. If God loved people as much as I did, HOW COULD HE?  But YET...I have recieved "attitude" from people here (VERY VERY FEW I WANT TO ADD) who ADMIT that they only started to see these things  a few months ago. It really only makes me sad. I am here to learn, and if my simple questions make anyone frustrated, then hey...skip my post and move on...and if I am causing a problem or breaking the rules, then GENTLY TELL ME, and I will stop and apologize. Isn't that how we should act?

This is off the subject, but Beloved you just got me thinking.

Love to all, sorry I got off subject,
Chuck





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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2006, 10:22:48 PM »

Hi Chuck, I hear you Brother,

We all need to practice discernment tempered with patience and longsuffering, if someone comes to fellowship with us in a humble spirit we as brothers and sisters should be receptive to them, if they cause strife and contention by holding on to man made doctrines and attempt to preach the gospel of Babylon after admonishments by the brethren they should be invited to leave us.

 
Mal 3:16  Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
 
Mal 3:17  And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
 
Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

When we are confronted with those who would dilute the Gospel or spew vain contention it is imperitive that we be bold in the faith of Him who has freed us from the bonds of this world, we should not be timid in the name of "love."

Rom 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

1Ti 6:11  But thou, man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love patience, meekness.

Tit 2:2  That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

1Pe 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

His Peace and Wisdom to all of you,

Joe
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jerreye

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Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2006, 11:40:22 PM »

According to Ray, Eve committed every known category of sin known to man before she ever touched or ate of the tree of knowledge (if I am wrong on this, then perhaps I misread Ray..if so, please forgive me).

If this is so (and it may well be) then every time any of us finds an apple to be "good for food", we are actually SINNING? If I happen to find a juicy t-bone steak "good for food", then I am actually commiting a SIN? This doesn't settle well in my stomach (like a juicy t-bone would, right about now)! Perhaps I am mising somthing here  :-\ Perhaps the real SIN in all this is the LUSTING over it EXCESSIVELY. In other words, it is ok to desire a t-bone, just not to the point of losing self-control over it...

I mean, if desiring a piece of chocolate cake - because I find it good for food - (or desert) is a sin, then I am really screwed!
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Before Eve took a bite
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2006, 04:25:09 AM »

Hi jerreye,

I think maybe you are trying to look at this in a physical sense.
This is more than the physical act,
of desiring food to eat, unless we are a glutton (Proverbs 23:21).
It is spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:13  And we impart this in words not taught
by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. (ESV)

Yes, she was lusting for the fruit,
the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John2:16),
all of these were already in her heart,
but then she acted upon her desires.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

James 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin,
when it is fully formed, brings forth death.

I don't think Eve ate of the fruit because she was hunger, she had plenty to eat,
and God told her not to eat it.
But it became an idol of the heart,
because it was, 'a tree to be desired to make one wise'.
But God knew that her carnal mind would give in to the desires of the flesh,
He was the one who made her weak to the pulls of the flesh in the first place.

Mat 26:41  Watch and pray that you enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
 
Hope this gives you some food for thought  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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