Need your thoughts on this

[kennymac]

 Hello,

I guess I did not present my question correctly. I think that if we were able to remove all the evil in the world good will still exist.

However, if we were able to remove all the good in the world evil, could not exist. 

I am not questioning the origin of evil, the bible clearly tells me that answer.

"Murder" In it's most horrific state is present in situations where, there is no motive for  murder. But the motive is still clear. The individual committing this evil act of murder derived some type of pleasure from this act.

Can you give me an example of evil that is not an attempt to receive something good or some type of pleasure. This is my question.

I have tried to give an example of evil without good.  I can not. I would prefer to believe that God did not create evil  just to give us a contrast. I would prefer to believe that  in order to have good, evil would HAVE to exist, and it is created by carnal man's attempt at happiness. Take a look around at the condition of the world it is man's attempt at finding happiness apart from his creator.

Again, If anyone can present a situation where evil can be explained without bringing good into it I would like to know of that example.

Grace and Peace,

Mary Ann

[hillsbororiver]

MaryAnn,

I guess it depends on your definition of "good," seeking selfish pleasures is not something that I would consider good. John Wayne Gacy sought pleasure raping and murdering boys and young men what is the good part or result of that motivation?

If I steal the life savings of my Grandmother to buy drugs for me and my friends I am seeking pleasure but what is good about it?

If I kill the man who bumps into me it satisfies a beastly, carnal urge, again where is the good part of that equation?

Good is when everyone benefits, evil is when you only care about yourself and the hell with anyone and everyone else.

Good is putting others first, serving your fellow man, evil is worshipping the beast within.

God's will is good, man's carnal (pleasure seeking, selfish) nature is bad.

Self pleasure does not equal good, that is our lesson in this life.

First we must agree on the definition of good. Jesus says only God is good, that is the one I must go with.

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

[chuckusa]

Hi Mary Ann,

If all evil was removed from the world, I agree that "good" would still exist. But of course that is my carnal understanding.

Now if all good was removed, whould there still be evil?

I think that it would still exist, simply because it is a creation. It is of God, not man. Man can only harbour evil, but does not create it. The scriptures speak of the power of evil, and warns of directly confronting it. We are to flee from evil, resist evil. Therefore it is a singular entity seperate from man or the will of man. When I sin, I do not desire evil, I simply fail to do the will of God, because I too am a creation, not of myself. This act of disobedience allows evil to work within me.

I think I understand your statement about contrast. I suppose the other pespective on contrast would be that God is evolving us towards good (organized) and evil is attempting to disorganize, such is the natute of the physical world (entropy) and is that which satan was commanded to consume (us). The breaking away from the physical, proves the superior motives of God, as compared to evil, insomuch as we are concerned.

Evil exists on the same plane as the physical, falling away towards disorganization. It is the nature of the physical world and must be under control of a creation with a similar propensity, which is evil. Its existence (evil) is a natural component of the natural physical world and in itself, in this plane, causes no real good for anything, and could exist apart from good. Evil will exist as long as the physical world exists because they are one and the same essentially. It may exist in itself, without any people, or need for good.

It is simply used by God for good. Its existence in itself, is apart from good.

Does that even come close to what you are seeking, or have I just been watching too many Star Trek episodes?
Perhaps someone with a clearer mind can make sense out of that because I read it again and...... ( I mean MY response)

Mary Ann its a great question to me...I wish I could explain what I mean better. Anyway, thats how I understand it, perhaps in time I will be able to write coherent sentences.

God bless,
Chuck

[ned]

Again, If anyone can present a situation where evil can be explained without bringing good into it I would like to know of that example.

Hi Mary Ann

An example. What about a car accident that kills a mother and two of her three children?

[ned]

  Can you give me an example of evil that is not an attempt to receive something good or some type of pleasure. This is my question.

I don't think evil needs an 'attempt' to receive something good.
..evil doesn't need human desire... evil is an invisible power.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[kennymac]

Hello All,

I would really appreciate your insight on this.

The fruit is that God is Love and God created good and very good. Evil is an outcome of man's carnal nature. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life  was alreadey in man, that is why he ate of the forbidden fruit. At that time man was exposed to evil. Prior to  this act of rebellion man new not evil. Is that correct? Then God said they have become like us knowing both good and evil.  God is purifying this world of evil. When He is finished we are told there will only be love (good).   God creator of love and goodness will restore this world to it's original creation pure love and goodness (no evil).  Goodness can and will exist without evil is not that what the scriptures teach?

Peace and Grace to all,

Mary Ann

[chuckusa]

Hello,

In Genesis 3:14 "...upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life." KJ

Is this the beginning of satans reign here on earth, with this command? This being after the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten, what power did he have up until this time. Was this proof that the world WAS without evil, until this moment.

I was under the conclusion that the world was created with evil already a component, and that the knowledge of good and evil was put in place to set up the process of being created in Gods image.

Can someone comment, I am getting confused about this point the more I read, I thought I already understood all this...

Thanks,
Chuck

[angie]

Hi Chuck,

7431
רמשׂ
remeś
reh'-mes
From H7430; a reptile or any other rapidly moving animal: - that creepeth, creeping (moving) thing. [OR Snake, Serpent

Gen 1:24   And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 

The serpent was made before Adam and Eve

Gen 2:8  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward, in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 3:1 "Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..."

H6175
ערוּם
‛ârûm
aw-room'
Passive participle of H6191; cunning (usually in a bad sense): - crafty, prudent, subtil.

We know that the serpent is Satan, and that:

I John 3:8  "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING.

If you notice, God made Adam outside of the garden, then placed him there afterwards. This was God's garden, yet satan was ALREADY THERE. Why would God even have made him, [far less put him in his own private garden] if not to do that for which he was created?

Cor.15:4-5 "...To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" 

Why would God want the destruction of the flesh of 'such an one' [human race beginning with adam and eve] what was wrong with it?

Rom 8:20  "For the creature [creation/humanity] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

We were made [deliberately marred] so that we would be weak in the face of the  lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. If we were not, Satan would not have been able to deceive Eve the way he did. If he hadn't been able to, she would not have desired to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Satan lied before Eve ever looked at the tree and desired the knowledge that came from the actual eating of the fruit.
In Genesis 3:14 "...upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."  I think this verse is telling us that eating the dust [dirt/earth/MAN] is what Satan's purpose is. He destroying the flesh by having us for lunch, devouring the flesh, sifting us like wheat, separating the wheat from the chaff etc.

Hope that helps and not add to your  confusion Chuck

Angie
x

[kennymac]

Chuck,

Thanks, for that information and I do agree with it totally. I guess what I am searching for now is what did Adam know before he sinned. Once he sinned we know that he did know both good and evil. What would we say he knew before he sinned.

Thanks for sharing.

Mary Ann

[chuckusa]

Hi Angie,

Yes, that helps. One thing I was wondering about, (and which is why I quoted Gen. 3:14) is this: Was this statement  giving satan the authority to devour man. Or in other words was this his go ahead to do this. It just hit me the other night that perhaps this is what this statement was, giving satan his orders, and that before this he was limited to lesser powers. Does that make sense? I assumed, I hope correctly, that he was refering to man when he used the word dust, and your opinion is as such also.

I know it seems trivial, but I am curious about this.

Thanks for taking the time to lay that out for me sister

[hillsbororiver]

  God is purifying this world of evil. When He is finished we are told there will only be love (good).   God creator of love and goodness will restore this world to it's original creation pure love and goodness (no evil). 

Where are we told this?

If God is restoring this world "to it's original creation pure love and goodness (no evil)" Then why is He also going to create a new heaven and earth, why is the former never to be remembered or come to mind?

Isa 65:17  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

His Peace and Wisdom to all of you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Mary Ann,

God planted a garden eastward in Eden, then He formed a man, Adam and put him in it.

Gen 2:15  And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
How long did he work and keep the garden?
Then he was told to name all the animals and birds, no small feat.

Gen 2:20  And Adam gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field. But there was not found a suitable helper for Adam.

All this was done before Eve was created.
Ray mentioned this at the conference, this could have taken years.

As to what Adam knew, the Bible does not say.

Gen 3:7  And the eyes of both of them were opened. And they knew that they were naked.

Knowing they were naked, is knowing they had sinned against what God told them they were not to do.

Lam 1:8  Jerusalem has grievously sinned, therefore she has been removed. All knowing her despise her because they saw her nakedness; yea, she sighs and turns backward.

Well, this just opens up more questions.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[angie]

Hiya all,

Can I ask if maybe we are not starting to get a little bit bogged down in the physical? The reason I ask this is because some of the previous questions seem to be concerned with things that are not in scripture which are open to conjecture and seem to be mostly concerned with the physical.

I think we must study diligently, but in a more spiritual frame of mind. Does everyone agree that even although literally true, these words are to be interpreted spiritually and that everything physical is a foreshadow of the spiritual things that are, was and will be? and to deliver a spiritual meaning to teach us the truth?

I think also that sometimes we are given small, seemingly extraneous information, but we know that everything is there for a reason and also that it is not until elsewhere in scripture we come to find out the SPIRITUAL significance of it.

On that note, I would like to put it all down here[in laymans term to see if my understanding is correct]

I appreciate and welcome any corrections on anywhere my thought process might have gone a bit askew, or wrong terminology used where I hadn't intended it since I value everyones input

What I get so far,  is that Adam loved Eve soooo much that what ever fate she was  going to have, then he was going to go through it too to be with her. He was never going to forsake her but leave with her to keep her safe with him.

I don't  actually believe that Adam and Eve are the real point of this story though, in a literal way in what first apperars to be a  literal, physical story. When we are told anything in the bible, We are not to match the physical with physical, but spiritual with spiritual.
I think we really need to look beyond adam and eve in the physical, to see what it is they represent by way of a spiritual message. We must always always remember that everything physical is a foreshadow and is like the spiritual. [in some ways]

Adam represents Jesus, Eve represents the Church [and also the mother of all humanity], The spiritual message is that even though she [the church and humanity] has sinned greatly, Jesus loves her and will never forsake her. He will die for her, He will sacrifice HIMSELF to God to atone for the sins, just as adam sacrificed his life by doing what he had to, to leave God's garden [heaven?] to be wiith eve.[the church and humanity]

If you think back, God talked with Adam about not eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He would have passed that message on to Eve when she was then made. [conclusion from thread...in the beginning] He was the mediator between her and God, just as Jesus is the mediator still between God and humanity. She didn't accept the word of God as the truth when confronted by the lies of satan, she believed satan, just as the church of the day in Jesus's time did, and they murdered him.[has anything really changed even now, I ask myself]

In scripture, we are told that Jesus is perfect, not marred like the first adam, who DID sin. Jesus never did. He never strayed from the word of God and was not deceived when He was led into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. He was made perfect as an example for US. It's ALL for us, OUR benefit, but first we must 'see' the real message, find the 'hidden treasure' .

As far as satan is concerned, I think he already knew what he was created for and that was the destuction of the flesh and that we are simply told details in genesis 3:14, not as a signal that this is time to 'get started' doing what he was designed for since he already HAD by deceiving eve. It was to tell us that if we stray from the word of God, Satan will have us for lunch

I hope all this came out right  sometimes it is difficult to put into words exactly what it is you understand. I do know that in the final analysis, all scripture should be quoted to demonstrate why you believe a certain thing, sorry guys, I am sooo pushed for time. Anybody want to jump in with a few go right ahead. I just was always taught that when you could put something down using you own expressions, in plain, everyday language, it was then that you could show what your real understanding was of what was taught you. I'm not wanting anyone to think I'm changing or adding to or taking away from the original.

Angie
x

[angie]

P.S

another thought..., I know my previous post might make my understanding seem a bit 'condensed' but;
Are we not supposed to pay heed to 'The sum' of God's words? Does that mean the end result, conclusion, understanding, despite how many 'bits' are in the original equation? 

Reeeeeaaaally need to dash now!

Angie
x

[hillsbororiver]

What I get so far,  is that Adam loved Eve soooo much that what ever fate she was  going to have, then he was going to go through it too to be with her. He was never going to forsake her but leave with her to keep her safe with him.

You nailed it sister!



Adam represents Jesus, Eve represents the Church [and also the mother of all humanity], The spiritual message is that even though she [the church and humanity] has sinned greatly, Jesus loves her and will never forsake her. He will die for her, He will sacrifice HIMSELF to God to atone for the sins, just as adam sacrificed his life by doing what he had to, to leave God's garden [heaven?] to be wiith eve.[the church and humanity]

Another home run



As far as satan is concerned, I think he already knew what he was created for and that was the destuction of the flesh and that we are simply told details in genesis 3:14, not as a signal that this is time to 'get started' doing what he was designed for since he already HAD by deceiving eve. It was to tell us that if we stray from the word of God, Satan will have us for lunch

Just as a lion looks for the lamb that strays from the Shepherd and the flock, the devil seeks to consume those who wander away from His Word.


Angie
x

Good morning Angie,

Great observations!

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

As Kat mentioned Ray does a very interesting study on this very subject, it is on the Conference audio.

Joe

[angie]

Bobby,

thanks for those scriptures. You know, in certain circles, we are always being told about context, context, context, [as Ray would put it  ] and yet, I saw a video with mike vinson in which he spoke about how paul said things by combining bits of scriptures to make up a whole truth.

In yet another paper of Ray's, [sorry, I can't remember which] he said something like how the truth just flows, one part into the other to reveal the whole.     I had not a clue what he was talking about then.

It's when we post scriptures here, from wherever they are in the order of things, because they are relevant to each other, I begin to get a glimpse of the whole marvelous picture. It is so beautiful, It makes me want to cry because the love, mercy and grace that is showered on us makes me feel even MORE humbled in the face of it. I am only just getting to truly realize the enormity of the HUGE sacrifice made on our behalf. I feel an incredible amount of shame that rips my heart into a thousand little bits at what humanity has done, is doing, and will continue to do [that includes me  ]
What wretches we really are. Thank God that He is love and forgives. It's more than we deserve.

Angie
x

[snorky]

Angie, your post #11 was awesome! Best reading on this topic I've ever seen (and believe me, I've been around long enough to have seen some doozies!) Thanks!--snorky

[gmik]

I love the story of Adam & Eve and how all the bits and pieces of scripture point to the sum (here a little, there a little).  So much to learn when going from physical to spiritual.  (Angie and Bobby are you posting again?? )  Angie, I loved your post. how beautiful to think of the love Adam had & Jesus has.  I will read it again and again.

Can't wait to get into Ray's audios.

gena