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[hillsbororiver]

Another point Ray made at the Conference (also on the audio) is the difference between the conventional term "born again" to the more accurate "conceived again," for the sake of discussion I would like to pose the question, does this make a significant difference in how we should view this process we are experiencing?

Can you see us as really just in the embryonic stage of our spiritual development and that once we are resurrected that is when we are truly born again? Our spiritual seed is sown in the flesh but after we die and are resurrected we are truly 100% born (again) in spirit? We are no longer influenced or tainted by our carnal flesh or nature, the immortal incorrutable spiritual body begins to grow.


Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born1080 again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Paraphrasing, this verse would read " Except a man be conceived again (in the spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Any thoughts?

Joe

[Chris R]

Hi Joe, 


  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again  Jhn 3:6-7


I see the same thing written as you have mentioned in John 3...as with any regeneration, it takes time to complete the process, As God wills.

Peace

Chris R

[Harryfeat]

Hello Joe,

I share your view of the journey.

I can't get too fired up about the term conceived.  It has close association or alternative meaning of being ideated.  Since our existence as human flesh and subsequently as spirit  has already been preconceived by the Almighty, it seems that the idea or concept of us being conceived again by Him is inaccurate or merely just more confusing.

I like the term reborn but think that being regenerated or even re formed seems the more accurate of all terms to me.   

I hope this was at least part of what you were asking.  I obviously missed the deeper meaning of your question.

feat

[hillsbororiver]

Hello feat,

How have you been? I haven't seen you in a while, I hope all is well with you and yours.

Ray made some very compelling points on this subject (you can hear it on the audio Dennis provided) but I will write some of it here with the notes he provided at the Conference;





                                       BEGOTTEN OR BORN ANEW FROM ON HIGH


Was Jesus gennao in Nazereth, and gennao in Bethlehem also? Is this a contradiction of the Scriptures?

Christ was CONCEIVED (#1080 gennao - regenerate, beget, conceive, be born) in Nazareth (Luke 1:26-31).

But Christ was BORN (#1080 gennao - regenerate, beget, conceive, be born) in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1).

Notice that Jesus was "conceived" before He was born: Isn't that the normal way it is done? Were not you and every human on earth "conceived" before they were actually "born?" Yes, of course they were. So how is it then that we go straight to being "born again" before we are "conceived anew from on high?"

Notice too that those who are "born again" are invisible "like the wind" (John 3:3....) Surely there are no Christians alive today who are invisible like the wind are there? I know of no Version that has these verses correct, 1 Peter 1:23 is likewise speaking of a spiritual "conception" or "begettal" (from seed) rather than an actual birth. He that is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT!


L. Ray Smith (Mobile Conference Saturday 9/2/06)






I hope that helped in understanding this point.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[ned]

The term "born again", or more actual; "conceived from above" to me is perfect!

Just like babies at conception did not have a choice to be conceived, so it is with God's chosen. He draws us to Him, not by our own free will, but by His.

Also, John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth, so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When you are born conceived of the spirit, you cannot give yourself credit and know how you got there, only by God's will are you chosen, not of yourself, as though you could boast.

Excellent topic Joe.
Thanks,
Marie

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

This is a good subject to explore.
There is so much to be considered.

Comparing our spiritual conception to that of a baby, it is a process of development, that leads to birth.
When a baby is ready, think how much is gained at actual birth. The whole world is opened up.

Now we can compare this to how much is gained when we have our spiritual eyes opened, the whole spiritual world begins to open up.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Harryfeat]

Hello Joe,

All is well thank you and I hope the same for you and yours.

Thanks for providing that snippit from Ray.  I will try to get to the audio time permitting.

Maybe this is just a carnal sense of ego but I can't get into the being excited about the term reconceived.  I guess I really never liked the term conception as applied to a sperm turning an egg into a zygote.  It is truly at that point that we become part of the human race and are reformed into a fleshy/spiritual being.

I have always believed that we existed before we were transformed into a human form.  The concept that Christ existed prior to becoming man could apply to all of us. Didin't Christ teach us that whatever existed in the mind was real.  That we could commit adultery without touching another woman.

When we came into God's thoughts is that the point of conception.   The idea of us was conceived in God's thought long before we were turned into these fleshy carnal half breeds. 

You talked of being on a journey.  When did that journey begin and when does it end.  If in the middle of that journey we are no longer and something else is conceived, are we now talking about two journeys.

When does the "I" in the journey end? Being reconceived seems at odds with my sensibilities when considered that it will be I that is ressurrected but in a different form with my fleshy parts shed and my spiritual entact.  When Christ arose he was not reconceived, but reformed into spiritual form.

I could go into the analogy of the caterpiller turned chrysalis then butterfly but it just seems inadequate to explain what I am thinking about this whole journey.

Was it Einstein that said that all matter is just some different forms of energy.  It seems that we have been conceived only once in God's mind and that whatever form we take throughout our journey, we are still the same entity He conceived.

I am sorry I can't express it any better.   I hope you can get an idea of why the word conceived again is not so compelling to me.

Maybe after listening to the tape I will have some different or additional thoughts.

feat

[hillsbororiver]

Hello feat,

I can appreciate your feelings, we all come to realizations of different things at different times, we are on His schedule and not ours.

The "pre-existed" theory can be compelling but there is no scriptural authority for it, I have found that speculation and supposition in matters not covered by His Word can lead to the abyss of confusion, I believe when God breathed into Adam after forming him was the beginning of his life not a continuance of his life in another form.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This seems pretty straight forward, became a living soul.

It is my belief that there is more than enough to try to understand within His written Word without having to go outside of it using our own logic, for me the foundation becomes weaker the further we move away from what is written.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

If I am mistaken and there are scriptural witnesses for this idea please feel free to share them with us.

His Peace and Wisdom to you and yours,

Joe

[Harryfeat]

Hello again Joe,

Perhaps I muddied the waters with my opion about pre humanization.  The operative word in what I said was that Christ existing before becoming man could apply to all of us.  He is the example we follow.  I also often wondered also whether Christ had a soul before becoming man. Biut that is another whole subject area. Enough of the speculation though.  I don't have any quote from the bible to support my opinion. I was only trying to explain to you why I personally didn't get too excited about the words conceived again.  As Bobby says, I can only relate to how the Holy Spirit speaks to me.  I hear and understand your words Joe, I just see things a little differently.  I don't think the bible is the be all and end all to our search for truth, however I accept the limitations here for it to be the basis for our discussions.

Ignoring any thoughts about preexistence before becoming man and getting a soul, what is your reaction to the rest. If God created us and conceived us as man to be resurrected in spirit , we are still his creation ever chaniging form until He is All in All.

Let me try another example to try to clarify.   I see birth and rebirth as a change from one type of life to another.  As a baby in the womb we are constantly growing.  At birth we are still the same person, we are still the same living soul but we are now separated from our mothers and we are breathing on our own..  Life on earth is still a period of constant change and hopefully growth for us. At the end of this life on earth we will be resurrected into the spiritual life without our flesh and blood bodies.  I see it as a rebirth to the next phase of a single journey rather than being conceived again because we are still accountable for all that happened prior to the resurrection.  We carry all the baggage from the prior phases.

I didnt mean to get you side tracked.   I hope that helps a little more.  Thanks again for your continued and edifying input Joe. 


It's good to see you back so soon Bobby. It is also great to see you haven't lost your eyes and ears while you were away

feat

[Kat]

Hi Bobby,

Glad to see you are staying near  .

I too was concerned about that statement.
The Word, is Christ, in written form.
This verse says it all.

Col 3:16  Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat 

[Harryfeat]

I don't think the bible is the be all and end all to our search for truth, however I accept the limitations here for it to be the basis for our discussions.


 Hi Feat and I lurk for I worry about you all here at this forum.

Your quote disturbs me so let us see what the WORD of God has to say about your comment.

Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.


Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.

Psalm 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalm 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psalm 119:116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Psalm 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Psalm 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psalm 119:169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

bobby

Hello Bobby,

Thank you for those quotes. I appreciate and take some comfort in them.  However,  I don't see anywhere in the quotes that says to rely only on the bible as the only source for His word but to heed the word that is written there. Perhaps I just am unable to see the limitation.

I apologize for making you feel uneasy or uncomfortable by expressing my opinion.  Frankly, I am surprised that you find it disturbing to believe that truth and understanding can also come from sources other than the bible.   I quote you from your previous post..."When God speaks through us with His Sprit I am thankful to HIM that I have those eyes and hears opened to see it and hear it."
Did you truly mean it when you said the Holy Spiirt speaks to you? Is this not a source of truth outside of the bible? 


I truly believe that the bible is a very significant tool for us but not the only source of truth.  I apologize in advance if this offends anyone but it is where I am.  Please understand that I agree with much of what Ray interprets from the bible.  I am still studying and am not yet quite in total agreement.


As far as the bible goes here are a few hypothetical questions that might help me to explain myself. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THESE QUESTIONS ARE NOT EXPECTED TO BE ANSWERED BUT ONLY TO HELP YOU TO SEE WHERE I AM.

-The bible is a collection of scripture which has been badly or inaccurately translated.  Much of what we have been led to believe about eternal torment results from it.  true or false  Does that mean we should discount the whole thing?

-God chooses who He chooses.  Do we expect that God will limit his choices to only those who have read the bible?

-When we are inspired by the Holy Spirit, does His inspiration bring truth to us?  Does the Holy Spirit inspire only those who read the bible.

-Are there sources of God's truth told to us from outside the bible? Do we experience brotherly love by reading the bible or interacting with them?

************************************************************************************


Enough with the hypotheticals or someone will accuse me of trying to teach.    These kinds of things run through my mind whenever anyone trys to limit my thinking or create a basis for me to start excluding others as my brothers.  Someone else tried to make the point of asking whether there has been anything else of God's inpired word given to us in the last 2000 years.  I found the question intriguing because if everthing.... is,  was,  and will be ....then why wouldn't God be speaking to us today?


Getteing back on topic, I still need to listen to the tape. Perhaps someone knows which tape discusses the concept of conceiving vs rebirth.


In any case, Bobby, I hope this eases your concern.  If you or any of the other moderators believe that, from what I have said that I am not like minded (however you define it) with the rest of this group then please delete me from the membership rolls.  I have no wish to a source of divisiveness.



feat

[snorky]

Anyway, here's what I think, since I have considered this issue elsewhere...regarding John 3:8

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." This verse means that GOD, not man, sends the Holy Spirit to those He chooses to send it to, at the time of His choosing! I am not sure it means those chosen are invisible (well, maybe the spirit is...certainly, those who put on incorruption are not flesh). Jesus saves, whereas it is taught that "we" can "save" others "for Jesus" which is hogwash. But there is probably more to it than that.

I have to wonder about all the divisiveness that occasionally crops up here. I am NOT taking sides, but I really think that not only is the Bible simply put (though spiritual discernment is never easy...iut must be GIVEN), but it is also logical, because knowledge of one precept God given leads to more knowledge God given and a logical connection to prior knowledge. But as to Feat's posts, he may have a point...what God reveals in the Bible is what He CHOOSES to reveal to those seeking the truth at this time (or age or whatever). For instance, it doesn't explain things that we don't necessarily need to know but would be interesting to learn, such as what God looks like. We don't need to know that, but that doesn't mean there isn't such a thing. The Bible doesn't explain Chinese civilization though God fomented it. The Bible doesn't explain how the continents divided in the time of Peleg; it doesn't explain why (the process) whereby Lot's wife turned to salt. It doesn't explain the scientific processes, genetics, etc. Maybe that is what Feat was saying, and not trying to belittle the Bible.

snorky

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Snorky,

You are (as well as others) entitled to your opinion(s). In regard to physical science and worldly things often one opinion is just as valid as another. Some things science has nailed, on others people with equally solid backgrounds are diametrically opposed.

In regard to the Word there is no such ambiguity, although the denominations mix man made philosophies with the Word we are scripturally admonished not to add to or take away from what is written.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ , he hath both the Father and the Son.

2John 1:10 If there come any unto you , and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

2John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I hope you can see where we are coming from,

Joe

[snorky]

Joe you are right, and I agree with what you are saying. However, what I meant to say but I guess got muddled, was the God has revealed to us all we know (and I do not and did not intend to "add" to it or "take way" from it)...yet He has not revealed to us all He knows! That will come at a time of His choosing. I am not about to argue with you on this; however, I, Feat, you and others here are on a journey to truth and some are at various stages (six months ago I believed in the rapture, so obviously I am at a much more early stage than many here). Basically what i am saying is that though a poster may be wrong, the responses to these wrong ideas are sometimes a bit overbearing. That's my 2 cents, but, we are, after all, flesh with the intention of wealking in the spirit and have light hearts.

snorky

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Snorky,

I certainly agree that patience and longsuffering are traits we all should be seeking, when someone has a question that is asked in a humble spirit we are obligated to answer as a loving brother or sister and not as the stern, unforgiving schoolmaster.

Patience and brotherly love are true fruits of the spirit, things all of us should be striving for.

Thank you for the response.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

[chuckusa]

Joe,

I couldn't agree with you more. I would like to see all responses be answered out of love, as an example...and this isn't being "weak". It's actually following the scriptures.

Mat 5:44    "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you".

Rom 12:14    "Bless them which persecute you; bless, and not curse them".

Luke 6:27   "But I say unto you which hear, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you".

We can certainly "lovingly" ban someone. Even those that have to be banned, why not ban them with with a loving attitude. Do we not all wish for them to recieve the spirit of God, we don't hate them do we? If someone feels contrary to this opinion...I have to ask why. What is really served by going beyond that. I truly believe that the word is our absolute reference, not what we think.

An environment that makes people afraid to post, for fear of being chastised, possibly simply for their ignorance... is not scripturally sound. I have seen responses to "wrong" posts that were worse than the original post itself.

I am guilty of this. I almost left this forum because my words were too harsh towards others, in my opinion.

I support ALL the moderators...what a tough job! I am NOT saying any of this towards any one person or group of people...just in GENERAL, as an opinion.

I thank God for this topic being brought out, only good can come from this. I really hope I don't come across as sounding like a jerk, this topic has caused me a lot of distress since being a member. I haven't posted that much because of feeling that I will be "focused upon" for being so dumb about some things.

Love to all,
chuck