Topic: Christ volunteered to go to the cross! (Read 9308 times)

Kat · « **on:** September 10, 2006, 11:43:12 PM »

This was taken off the notes Ray handed out at the conference.

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Jesus did not die in "our place and stead."
Jesus was not a "substitutionary sacrifice."
Jesus did not "have" to die on the cross at all.

John 3:16--"For God thus loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son...." He didn't need to. Then why DID HE? TO SHOW HIS LOVE!

Did the Father "make" His Son Jesus die? Did He "take" His Son's life? NO! John 10:17-18---Jesus VOLUNTEERED HIS LIFE for us!!! While we were yet sinners (Rom. 5:08).

Christ died for His Own Created Creatures to show them HOW MUCH HE LOVES US! Jesus didn't have to die---He WANTED to die, because there was no greater way to show His absolute love.

What the law couldn't do and we couldn't do, CHRIST DID (Rom 8:3). We must experience sin before we can be saved from it! How did Elohim come to a knowledge of "good and evil?" WE aren't told.

Jesus Christ IS the gospel:
"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (1Cor. 15:1-3). We have yet much to learn!
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Christ volunteered to go to the cross.
Joh 10:17 For this reason my Father loves me, because I am laying down my life in order to receive it back again.
Joh 10:18 No one is taking it away from me, but I myself am laying it down. I am authorized to lay it down, and I am authorized to receive it back again. This is the command I received from my Father."

We will never be able to say, that He does not know what it's like to go through something we have experienced. Because He experienced it all.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

buddyjc · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2006, 01:41:55 PM »

Yes, no man took the life of Christ, but does this take the Father out of the equation?

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The Father is sovereign in ALL things, and even in the death of His Son. How can we say that the Father did not do it, or that Christ did not 'have' to go to the cross. Could Christ have said, "Nope, not today?' While in the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ did ask that the cup pass from Him, and what was it Jesus said? 'Not my will, but thine be done.' Yes! Jesus Christ 'Had' to go to the cross, because he came to do the Father's will, and the Father's will was to 'crush' him for the sins of the world.

Just my two-cents.

Brian

buddyjc · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2006, 02:01:53 PM »

I guess I have a little difficulty with the statement that Christ did not 'have' to die on the cross at all. This act was foreordained since the world began. It has always been in God's plan for it to happen, so can we really say that Christ did not 'have' to die on the cross?

Brian

Kat · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2006, 06:12:50 PM »

Hi Brian,

Most people believe that Jesus had to die on the cross.
But grace has saved us through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

The cross was the plan from the beginning, not because it was the way it had to be.
The reason Christ, who always does the will of The Father,
went to the cross, was He (Christ) created man and gave him an experience of evil,
because it is necessary for man to know both good and evil.
Christ went to the cross to suffer,
so we will never be able to say He doesn't know what we are suffering.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin.

Act 17:3 He explained and showed them that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. He said, "This very Jesus whom I proclaim to you is the Christ."

1Pe 2:21 For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Jesus and the Father are perfectly of the same mind in this, and all things.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

TRUTHSEEKER · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2006, 07:12:49 PM »

I have to agree with buddyjc on this one. I wasn't at the conference. I would have loved to have been there. The qote that is said to have been taken from the conference of Jesus did not have to die on the cross is simply not scriptural. Jesus was in the Garden battling with his flesh and with God to have this cup of carrying the sins of the world on his shoulders to the cross. If he didn't have to do it then, why did he go through with it? He need not to have prayed three times and had sweat drip from his body as great drops of blood if he could have just walked aways from it all. He had to do it. The prophets of old foretold of it, mainly Isaiah. How could Jesus just walk away from the very thing that his Father commissioned him to do?

"But the cross was the plan from the beginning, not because it was the way it had to be."

Question: if the cross was the plan from the beginning, how could it not have had to be the way that it was if that was the plan from the beginning?

Kat · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2006, 10:00:08 PM »

Hi TRUTHSEEKER,

Christ did die for our sins. I'm not disputeing this scripture.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received,
that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,

If He had not been the sin offering we would remain dead in the grave.

Rom 6:23 For the wages paid by Sin are death;
but God's free gift is the Life of the Ages bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When Jesus was in the garden,
He was certainly thinking of the events about to come upon Him.
He knew what He was going to suffer, He was a man,
but even in this whole ordeal He was our example.
It was those sufferings which are 'behind of the afflictions of Christ' (Col. 1:24),
that are being filled up in God's elect now.
Also He was going to die and be dead.
Was it not possible for Christ to be distressed about what was about to happen to Him.

Mat 26:38 Then He said to them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Wait here and watch with Me.

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

It was the Father's will for Christ to die on the cross, and Christ was in total agreement.
Even in the garden He prayed for the Father's will to be done.
But He was not forced to go, the Father did not make Him, He wanted to.
It was His way of showing His absolute love for us.

I hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

shoani · « **Reply #6 on:** September 12, 2006, 04:11:05 AM »

i have to agree with Brian. the Volunteer part is confusing. i blive he did not volunteer but rather obedient to HIS father's command. He new he had to do it and like anybody else, prayed about it several times wishing for it to go away"may this cup pass from me" but He knew exactly that He came on earth to do His Father's will and dieing on the cross was part of the package(covenant). He had to go through it for the end-results of it. the end justified the means and as much as He wished it to happen otherwise, Cross was the way chosen by His murderers.
the explanation is good but the Volunteering part need to be revised.

much luv

shoani

MG · « **Reply #7 on:** September 12, 2006, 07:07:26 AM »

The comparison was with Adam and Eve. Adam was not deceived and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing he would die. He did this because he loved Eve. He gave himself for Eve. Christ gave himself for us.
If Christ had not given himself for me then I would be lost forever. How can he say he loves me and not volunteer to give his life to save me?

The Father gave his Son because he loves us. The Son gave his life because he loves us and loves the Father. We are giving our lives because we love the Father and the Son and then we give our lives for each other.

There have been many men who have given their lives for others and not sweat blood doing it. Was it Christ's will that hour to save himself and let all of us perish? That doesn't seem to fit his character. Hebrews 12 says he was resisiting sin. He had so sin within him so what sin was he resisting? It doesn't say he was being tempted.

John 15:
12 This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Luke 22
41 And he was parted from them about a stone's cast; and he kneeled down and prayed,
42 saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

Hebrews 12
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin

Matthew 26
52 Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be?

John 18
10 Simon Peter therefore having a sword drew it, and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. Now the servant's name was Malchus.
11 Jesus therefore said unto Peter, Put up the sword into the sheath: the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Kat · « **Reply #8 on:** September 12, 2006, 10:20:31 AM »

Joh 10:17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

These concepts are not easy to explain,
and sometimes I'm not able to get my point across clearly.
These commentaries might be helpful,
there is a lot in these that is very useful to me.

This was in Vincent's Word Studies-----------------------

Taketh away (αἴρει)
Some texts read ἤρεν, took away.
According to this reading the word would point back to the work of Jesus
as conceived and accomplished in the eternal counsel of God,
where His sacrifice of Himself was not exacted,
but was His own spontaneous offering in harmony with the Father's will.
I lay it down of myself
Wyc., I put it from myself.
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Robertson's Word Pictures

No one taketh it away from me (oudeis airei autēn ap' emou).
But Aleph B read ēren (first aorist active indicative of airō, to take away),
probably correct (Westcott and Hort).
“John is representing Jesus as speaking sub specie aeternitatis” (Bernard).
He speaks of his death as already past and the resurrection as already accomplished.
Cf. Joh_3:16.
Of myself (ap' emautou). The voluntariness of the death of Jesus repeated and sharpened.
D omits it, probably because of superficial and apparent conflict with Joh_5:19.
But there is no inconsistency as is shown by Joh_3:16; Rom_5:8.
The Father “gave” the Son who was glad to be given and to give himself.
I have power to lay it down (exousian echō theinai autēn).
Exousia is not an easy word to translate (right, authority, power, privilege).
See Joh_1:12. Restatement of the voluntariness of his death for the sheep.
And I have power to take it again (kai exousian echō palin labein autēn).
Note second aorist active infinitive in both cases
(theinai from tithēmi and labein from lambanō), single acts.
Recall Joh_2:19 where Jesus said: “And in three days I will raise it up.”
He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently
of the Father as the active agent (Rom_8:11).
I received from my Father (elabon para tou patros mou).
Second aorist active indicative of lambanō.
He always follows the Father’s command (entolē) in all things (Joh_12:49.; Joh_14:31).
So now he is doing the Father’s will about his death and resurrection.

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This is a much better explanation than I could give.
Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Brett · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2006, 01:07:58 AM »

Quote

This was in Vincent's Word Studies-----------------------

Taketh away (αἴρει)
Some texts read ἤρεν, took away.
According to this reading the word would point back to the work of Jesus
as conceived and accomplished in the eternal counsel of God,
where His sacrifice of Himself was not exacted,
but was His own spontaneous offering in harmony with the Father's will.
I lay it down of myself
Wyc., I put it from myself.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Robertson's Word Pictures

No one taketh it away from me (oudeis airei autēn ap' emou).
But Aleph B read ēren (first aorist active indicative of airō, to take away),
probably correct (Westcott and Hort).
“John is representing Jesus as speaking sub specie aeternitatis” (Bernard).
He speaks of his death as already past and the resurrection as already accomplished.
Cf. Joh_3:16.
Of myself (ap' emautou). The voluntariness of the death of Jesus repeated and sharpened.
D omits it, probably because of superficial and apparent conflict with Joh_5:19.
But there is no inconsistency as is shown by Joh_3:16; Rom_5:8.
The Father “gave” the Son who was glad to be given and to give himself.
I have power to lay it down (exousian echō theinai autēn).
Exousia is not an easy word to translate (right, authority, power, privilege).
See Joh_1:12. Restatement of the voluntariness of his death for the sheep.
And I have power to take it again (kai exousian echō palin labein autēn).
Note second aorist active infinitive in both cases
(theinai from tithēmi and labein from lambanō), single acts.
Recall Joh_2:19 where Jesus said: “And in three days I will raise it up.”
He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently
of the Father as the active agent (Rom_8:11).
I received from my Father (elabon para tou patros mou).
Second aorist active indicative of lambanō.
He always follows the Father’s command (entolē) in all things (Joh_12:49.; Joh_14:31).
So now he is doing the Father’s will about his death and resurrection.

Hi Kat,

Sometimes, Vincent and Robertson are hard understand of their comment because they are high educational. I misunderstood them sometimes. You know I am deaf. No need sympathy. I want to make sure I understand right about their comments of Jesus' volunteer, did they say like it is absolutely of Jesus' volunteer?

Let me know. Thanks.

Brett

Beloved · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:09:48 AM »

Very interesting post It seem this little word 'volunteer' is becoming a semantic stumbling block. Since the actual word "volunteer" is not in the scriptures I am not overly concerned about it's meaning.

In the beginning was The Word.

God's plan was for Jesus to save the world. .....Jesus died on the cross.

God "volunteered" Jesus in the beginning ......and .....right up to the crucifiction.

Since God is Totally Sovereign ...His Will ...will always be accomplished.

Jesus layed 'his physical life" way before the crucifixition....since He always did His Fathers Will

Please forgive me if my explanantoion appears to be too simplistiic

Beloved

chuckt · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2006, 09:36:41 AM »

greetings all.

what a wonderful Saviour!!!

i love this verse:

9 Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him.
10 For if, being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather, being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life.
11 Yet not only so, but we are glorying also in God, through our Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom we now obtained the conciliation.

good thread.
love
chuckt

Kat · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2006, 12:45:11 PM »

Hi Brett,

The Father had determined from the beginning the Son would die.
When Jesus was on earth, no one had power over Him, He was not forced to go to the cross when He did,
until the time came and he volunteered to let them to take Him.

Joh 7:30 Then they sought to seize Him, but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come.

Joh 10:39 Then they again sought to seize Him, but He went forth out of their hand.

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above.

Was it absolutely necessary that it be the cross. The cross was the most painful, lingering manner of death then known to man.
He said "I have authority to lay it down," His death was the sin offering, but the suffering was so He could experience what we do. Because He loved us that much, He was willing to go through this degree of suffering for us.

That's the way I see it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

buddyjc · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2006, 01:35:57 PM »

Here is a question. Did Jesus Christ while on this earth have 'free will?' You said that God and Christ planned it from the beginning and this means Christ knew he would have to do it. Yes, Christ did 'volunteer' to do it, but He volunteered to do it because there was NO OTHER WAY to redeem mankind.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Christ did it because He was the only one who could do it. Yes, He loved us and gave His life for us, but there was no free choice here. It was in the plan of God, and therefore He did 'have' to go to the cross.

Brian

orion77 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:19:57 PM »

Jesus was our perfect example. He came not to do His will, but the Fathers. Jesus had a will, but it was not free, just as ours, because the Father is behind the circumstances. The Christ chose to do the Fathers will, because of the Father.

I think by reading of the mission of Jesus, the things He said and did, portrays perfectly the soverignity of our Father. Jesus had the right to lay down His life and to take it up again, only through a commandment of the Father. He did not have that power in and of Himself, but only through the Fathers will.

Anything, everything and everybody since the dawn of time have progressed directly by the will of the Father. He is completely soverign. If we say Jesus volunteered or did not, it does not matter, because the end result is under the Fathers will.

That time He spent in the garden before suffering, speaks loudly of the soverignity of God. The whole idea of freewill was crushed right then and there, through the words of Jesus.

God bless,

Gary

Kat · « **Reply #15 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:56:15 PM »

Thanks Gary,

You said that very well.
I was beginning to think I had gotten in over my head here.
I am not trying to put myself across as an authority on this,
but if I can help anyone, I'm glad to do it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

TRUTHSEEKER · « **Reply #16 on:** September 13, 2006, 05:20:04 PM »

I have a thought. Please comment anyone if you are thinking along the same lines as I am. If not, I love to learn so here it goes. Ray taught that nothing happens without a cause. The overall cause behind all things is God. Whether indirectly or directly it is all of God. As concerning Christ going to the cross this all important event didn't occur without cause. The cause of Jesus' voluntary act of dying on the cross for his creation was in fact the Father's will (Isa 53). Because, of this all important fact God the Father did not have to force his son to go through the ordeal that he did. The cause was already set in motion before the foundations of the world. Jesus came to do the will of the Father. It couldn't have happen any other way unless God wanted it to have the sins of the world paid for another way. Jesus prayed "NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39) in the Garden of Gethsemane. What did the Father do? He gave him the resolve to go through with this ordeal by sending an angel to comfort him (Luke 22:43-44). The act was voluntary but not without cause. It was the greatest show of obedience to God. "I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not My Own will, but the WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HAS SENT ME" (John 5:30).
"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 6:38).

orion77 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:15:37 PM »

Quote from: TRUTHSEEKER on September 13, 2006, 05:20:04 PM

I have a thought. Please comment anyone if you are thinking along the same lines as I am. If not, I love to learn so here it goes. Ray taught that nothing happens without a cause. The overall cause behind all things is God. Whether indirectly or directly it is all of God. As concerning Christ going to the cross this all important event didn't occur without cause. The cause of Jesus' voluntary act of dying on the cross for his creation was in fact the Father's will (Isa 53). Because, of this all important fact God the Father did not have to force his son to go through the ordeal that he did. The cause was already set in motion before the foundations of the world. Jesus came to do the will of the Father. It couldn't have happen any other way unless God wanted it to have the sins of the world paid for another way. Jesus prayed "NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39) in the Garden of Gethsemane. What did the Father do? He gave him the resolve to go through with this ordeal by sending an angel to comfort him (Luke 22:43-44). The act was voluntary but not without cause. It was the greatest show of obedience to God. "I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not My Own will, but the WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HAS SENT ME" (John 5:30).
"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 6:38).

I agree, yet so many can't see these simple truths. That is what cracks me up about the teaching of mans freewill, where they say we choose to go to heaven or hell. Where is the sovereignty of God and the mission of Christ in that doctrine? So many attempt to raise their own freewill up and over the will of God. An impossible task.

I thank God, that He has not left our eternal destiny up to our sinful, rebellious ways. If that were the case, we would all be up the creek without a paddle.

God bless,

Gary

Kat · « **Reply #18 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:46:12 PM »

Hi TRUTHSEEKER,

Quote

Because, of this all important fact God the Father did not have to force his son to go through the ordeal that he did.

It was not the Father trying to force Jesus,
He could not be taken by forced by the Jews, Pilate, or the Roman soldiers.

Quote

Jesus prayed "NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39) in the Garden of Gethsemane. What did the Father do? He gave him the resolve to go through with this ordeal by sending an angel to comfort him (Luke 22:43-44). The act was voluntary but not without cause. It was the greatest show of obedience to God.

There was never any question to His obedience.
It was the greatest act of love that was possible for Him to show us.

I just see these few things a bit different.
But over all it's sounds right.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Author Topic: Christ volunteered to go to the cross! (Read 9308 times)

Kat

buddyjc

buddyjc

Kat

TRUTHSEEKER

Kat

shoani

MG

Kat

Brett

Beloved

chuckt

Kat

buddyjc

orion77

Kat

TRUTHSEEKER

orion77

Kat