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Author Topic: Any Historical Record's?  (Read 2464 times)

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yashua1970

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Any Historical Record's?
« on: September 25, 2006, 05:52:03 PM »

MATTHEW 27:51-53
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.



Hello
Why has this event not been written down by any other historian except what is found in the bible?
No records record this event at all. In all truth this would have been the greatest event to have taken place at that time and would have been written down by many people for the simple fact that many who had died had come back to life. Surely there is other testimony to this event?

Any thoughts on this?

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YellowStone

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2006, 09:32:35 PM »

Good question yashua1970 :)

I of course cannot give you a diffinitive answer, but here are some possible thoughts.

  • It was recorded but all records other than those of Mathew were lost.
  • Because of shame, the then historians did not want to preserve this event and refused to record it
  • They were ordered by Caesar or (PP) to destroy all evidence of the event
  • It is God's intention that the event either not be recorded or the other records lost

No guessing which one I believe is correct. Nothing has ever happened apart from the will of God.

May I ask you a question, why do you think that God wanted only Mathew's recorded account and no other?

Pretty much the same question, just from a different perspective.

Well, that's my thoughts :)

Love to all.

Darren
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Andy_MI

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 10:29:31 PM »

Could these verses in Romans be talking about that event?

Rom 1:3-4 Rotherham
(3)  Concerning his Son,—who came to be of the seed of David, according to flesh,
(4)  Who was distinguished as the Son of God—by power, according to a Holy Spirit, through means of a resurrection of the dead,—Jesus Christ our Lord;


If this is indeed talking about the event in Mat 27:51-53, this would be a second witness.

Peace,

Andy
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ned

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2006, 11:44:31 PM »

Re: Matt 27:52

Psalm68:20 "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death."

and

Deut 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive: I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

quote from yashua1970: Surely there is other testimony to this event?
Is there any other testimony required than that what Jesus gives us?

Love and peace,
Marie
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YellowStone

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 12:27:32 AM »

Marie, Andy :)

I might be mistaken, but I believe yashua1970 was talking primarily about the reference to the tearing of the curtain in the temple from top to bottom. I know that this is not mentioned by any of the other writers of the Greek Scriptures. I also believe that he was also reffering to the reference of the tombs being opened and the bodies of many of the holy people were raised to life, walked into the citie and appeared to many.

This too is not recorded explicitly else where by any other writer.

I agree with yashua1970 that these verses (51-53) are not mentioned else where, at least not the curtain and certainly none of the holy ones raised by name.

Why do you think God only wanted Mathew to record these events and no other?

If I got the question wrong, please correct me! :)

Love to all,

Darren
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 12:30:58 AM by YellowStone »
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yashua1970

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 01:21:22 AM »

Marie, Andy :)

I might be mistaken, but I believe yashua1970 was talking primarily about the reference to the tearing of the curtain in the temple from top to bottom. I know that this is not mentioned by any of the other writers of the Greek Scriptures. I also believe that he was also reffering to the reference of the tombs being opened and the bodies of many of the holy people were raised to life, walked into the citie and appeared to many.

This too is not recorded explicitly else where by any other writer.

I agree with yashua1970 that these verses (51-53) are not mentioned else where, at least not the curtain and certainly none of the holy ones raised by name.

Why do you think God only wanted Mathew to record these events and no other?

If I got the question wrong, please correct me! :)

Love to all,

Darren

Hello Darren.
That was the right Question, It is one of the passages that I have always found very interesting in the scriptures.
It's such a profound passage.
In my mind I could just see the expressions on peoples faces and on the roman army and the Scribes.
Thats why I was just wondering If any other historians of that time had any kind of reference to that event.
Just by word of mouth, an event like that would have shook up the region.
I'm surprised that Josephus? (hope I got it right) didn't have something to say
God bless
Yashua
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yashua1970

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 01:24:19 AM »

Good question yashua1970 :)

I of course cannot give you a diffinitive answer, but here are some possible thoughts.

  • It was recorded but all records other than those of Mathew were lost.
  • Because of shame, the then historians did not want to preserve this event and refused to record it
  • They were ordered by Caesar or (PP) to destroy all evidence of the event
  • It is God's intention that the event either not be recorded or the other records lost

No guessing which one I believe is correct. Nothing has ever happened apart from the will of God.

May I ask you a question, why do you think that God wanted only Mathew's recorded account and no other?

Pretty much the same question, just from a different perspective.

Well, that's my thoughts :)

Love to all.

Darren

Quote
May I ask you a question, why do you think that God wanted only Mathew's recorded account and no other?

I'm really not for sure?
It would seem that God would have wanted the other authors to include it as well as another witness? ???
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orion77

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 02:03:12 AM »

This is an interesting question.  Going to strongs and look up the meaning of the words might shed some light?

grave:


G3419
μνημεῖον
mnēmeion
mnay-mi'-on
From G3420; a remembrance, that is, cenotaph (place of interment): - grave, sepulchre, tomb.

bodies:

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.


saints:

G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


slept:

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.


arose:

G1453
ἐγείρω
egeirō
eg-i'-ro
Probably akin to the base of G58 (through the idea of collecting one’s faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), that is, rouse (literally from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence): - awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-) rise (again, up), stand, take up.


appeared:

G1718
ἐμφανίζω
emphanizō
em-fan-id'-zo
From G1717; to exhibit (in person) or disclose (by words): - appear, declare (plainly), inform, (will) manifest, shew, signify.


Verses 50 and 51 are probably besides His resurrection, the most important thing that has ever happened for mankind.  The new testament was ushered in, we are no longer under law, but grace.  This was a huge event witnessed by many, and the honest hearted ones witnessing this were awakened out of a deep sleep, awakened to the truth, being brought out from under the curse of the law and into His glorious life.  And they appeared to many declaring this truth openly, not being afraid of the consequences.

Since this is only reported only in Mathew, seems strange if this physically happened.  Not only that, but the ones who so vehemently fought against the truth would of instantly been stopped in their tracks, seeing dead people walking around the city.  The fear would of been too great for them to continue persecuting the early christians.

Just a thought, but I agree, if something like this would of physically happened at the time of the death of Christ, there would be much written about it.

God bless,

Gary
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vneverov

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 03:30:28 AM »

“Why do you think God only wanted Mathew to record these events and no other?”


Well, Hebrews also mentions the tearing of the curtain in 10:19-20 : "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh." 
Hebrews and the gospel of Mathew were both written for the Jews (historically).  This mentioning of the curtain, or the veil being torn, is obviously something that needed to be emphasized for the Jewish believers in particular. Perhaps it was because the Jews were so traditional that God wanted the curtain to literally be torn, for them to see that traditions and carnal beliefs were not the way to the Kingdom of God.  The tearing of the curtain also symbolizes that the material way of worship was over with and dead just as the physical body of Jesus Christ.  A new way to worship was at hand: not in the temple, but in the temple of one's heart and mind.  Here, I see the chain of everything flowing from a physical state to a spiritual.

Also, maybe no one else recorded these events so we would not concentrate on the actual events, but on their meaning.  Everything in the Bible, as you all know, has a spiritual deeper meaning.  I bet if secular writers wrote about this, then instead of searching for a deeper meaning in the account, there would be debates on how it happened and whether or not it actually happened.   In fact, these are the debates people are having over Josephus’s mentioning of Jesus Christ. 

As for the resurrection of the dead, Gary is right, this might have never even happened physically.  Yet, even if it did I am not surprised it wasn’t mentioned by other authors. Many times I wonder why no secular author ever wrote about things such as: the feeding of the five thousand, the massacre of the innocent by Herod, or even events from the Old Testament such as the great exodus or the 10 plagues of Egypt.  It is a surprise to me that these and many many other events are not mentioned by historians, after all, these happenings do seem rather important :) .  But like I mentioned earlier, because these events are not mentioned elsewhere, they make us search for the true reason they were all really recorded.  I hope I made sense here :) !
Viktoriya
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Extol

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 06:04:50 AM »

Yashua wrote:
 I'm surprised that Josephus? (hope I got it right) didn't have something to say


I think, even if Josephus (a Jew) was familiar with this event, he would not want to record it because it might promote Christianity. I was reading the Antiquities of Josephus, and there are loads of information about the political happenings of the time (the Herods, the Romans, and so on). In between all the discussions about Pilate, Jewish rebellions, etc. there is inserted this little paragraph:
 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Antiquities 18:63-64)
 That's it! I may be wrong but I believe this is the ONLY time in all of his writings that Josephus mentions Jesus. Josephus obviously was much more concerned with reporting on political issues of the time, and since Jesus was not the earthly, Rome-conquering Messiah the Jews were hoping for, He was not worth more than a small paragraph. I was doing some research on this paragraph and it is almost certain that there were phrases added later on by Christian copyists to try and prove that Christ was the Messiah. Here is what may be a more accurate translation of the paragraph, as Josephus originally wrote it:
 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
 I have read in Josephus' Wars of the Jews of other men who were "doers of wonders" and "drew many after" themselves. He writes much more extensively about these false messiahs. This is probably because he was an eyewitness to these imposters (while he was not born until after Jesus was resurrected), but I still think it is interesting that he says so little about Jesus compared to later "doers of wonders".
 As you can see Yashua, Josephus didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, hence there was little point in writing about Him. It was enough to write that He was a "doer of wonders", without going into anything specific.
 
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mongoose

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2006, 01:24:11 PM »

So little of the history and writings of that time have been preserved and come down to us that it's impossible to say what was really written about at that time.  God only allowed fragments to be preserved.  And the culture was different than ours (not so reliant on the written word).  So, for me, the spritiual meaning of those things that God caused to be preserved might be more applicable to help us in seeking His kingdom.


mongoose
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YellowStone

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Re: Any Historical Record's?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2006, 02:28:11 PM »

vneverov wrote:

This mentioning of the curtain, or the veil being torn, is obviously something that needed to be emphasized for the Jewish believers in particular. Perhaps it was because the Jews were so traditional that God wanted the curtain to literally be torn, for them to see that traditions and carnal beliefs were not the way to the Kingdom of God.  The tearing of the curtain also symbolizes that the material way of worship was over with and dead just as the physical body of Jesus Christ.  A new way to worship was at hand: not in the temple, but in the temple of one's heart and mind.  Here, I see the chain of everything flowing from a physical state to a spiritual.


I think your reasoning here is correct, for I too share your reasoning.

I see the Great Curtain as guarding the people from the select few (either by God or man). When Christ died, there was no longer a need for the curtain, as now all were of equal standing with God. All had their sins forgiven and their was no longer a need for a self appointed elect.

More and more I am seeing the great hypocrisy of the modern day church. It seems that the further I am removed from them the clearer I see them for what they truly are. GOd is indeed wonderful.

Love to All,

Darren
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