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[MG]

Romans 6
 1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.


I listened to Rays bible study and it brought up this question. What does it mean to be baptized into Christ's death and buried with him by baptism into death? I never thought Christ became sin and never thought he had sin of his own and never thought that he was guilty of sin, but I thought that we were in him when he died somehow and it was our sin in him when he died. That clearly doesn't make sense because it says that there was no sin in him. Not even our sin. I also thought that Jesus took the wrath of God for our sin and that's not true?

One of the big lies that the church teaches is that we were purchased back from Satan and that Jesus traded his life for ours so we could be set free. If you read C.S. Lewis' book the lion, the witch, and the wardrobe that is clearly spelled out in that story.

So what do the above scriptures mean about dying and being dead to sin and dead to the law through the body of Christ?

[YellowStone]

Question from MG:

What does it mean to be baptized into Christ's death and buried with him by baptism into death?
MG,

I believe the term in question is best viewed metaphorically. I believe that Christ's death was paid as a ransom for sin, though I would not go as far as saying that Satan received payment.

Bobby posted the following:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We are new, not in a physical sense (I could use an updated body) but in a spiritual sense. We have a future because Christ is in us and we in him. We are (spiritually) as one with Christ. I would love to say that I am free of sin, but alas I cannot.

Romans 6:5-7
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What is Paul really saying here? Is he saying that old sinful body is destroyed, hat we no longer sin or a capable of sinning. And God help us if we do as many churches would have us believe? No.

The body of sin is destroyed because Christ is now the center of our being and we now serve him instead of Satan. Being freed from sin is not the same as being free from sin. What Paul means is that we are no longer bound by the constraints of sin. Although Satan tries ever so hard to influence our every step, he cannot undo the baptism into death, as death (spiritual) has no hold on us now.

Gosh I hope that makes sense.

Comments always welcom.

Darren

[joyful1]

MG--
I liked reading your question. I found this reply by Ray to a similar question. I don't know if it helps you  or not...

The penalty of sin issue can be settled in your heart and mind the instant you come to realize that Jesus PAID IN FULL the penalty for your sins and all the sin of the world. However, paying the penalty for sin does not instantly PURGE AND WASH US CLEAN OF SIN. The penalty is paid, but the condition lingers.

The more you SEE your sins and shortcomings, the more you will DESIRE to rid yourself of these things. We are crucified WITH CHRIST, yet we live, but the life we live is one of OVERCOMING THE SINS FOR WHICH WE AND CHRIST DIED FOR.

We have been HAND-PICKED by God to be in His kingdom. Now we must go through the training course that He has set before us.  Jesus said that He overcame THE WORLD. We too are to overcome THE WORLD. It's a HUGE task, that requires the power of SPIRIT to accomplish.

Don't become discouraged in well-doing. You will triumph in Christ if you have His spirit working in you. God will even give you the DESIRE to want to do right and be right.

This life is a life of SPIRITUAL WARFARE. There will be many battles before the final victory. So we must endure and we must overcome. For those whom God has chosen, this will be accomplished!

(*This reply by Ray can be found on his list of Emails & Replys...about 3/4 of the way down the 3rd from the left hand column.  It's in the email entitled; "Why Can't I Stop Sinning?" )


joyful1

[Kat]

Hi MG,

These scripture really seem to speak to your question.  Everything in parenthesis is mine. 

Col 1:9-10  And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled (this is when we are God's chosen and Christ lives in us) with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.
Col 1:11-12  May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you (as one of the few chosen) to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
Col 1:13-14  He has delivered us from the domain of darkness (in the world, not knowing the truth) and transferred us to the kingdom (we are in heaven, as we are in Christ) of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16-17  For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.  And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church (we are His temple). He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead (Christ's death to His flesh showed us that we must also die to the flesh spiritually, then Christ comes to live in us.  This is when we obtain the wisdom and understanding of v. 9), that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19-20  For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Col 1:21-23  And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death (as a sin offering), in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:24-26  Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions (that there was still much lacking on Paul's part, before he should be totally conformed to the Saviour in His sufferings, and that his present condition was such as rapidly to fill that up) for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
Col 1:27  To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Col 1:28  Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.
Col 1:29  For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

There is so many aspects of Christ that we have to learn about and unlearn.  This has helped me in my own seeking to understand, in answering your question I have gained a little more light on the subject.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[kennymac]

 Please read this before posting.
« on: March 15, 2006, 07:48:02 AM »     

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[kennymac]

Hi Joe,

Sorry, I did not realize that my post contradicts Ray's teachings. If possible Joe can you point out to me where my post is in opposition to rays teachings, so that in the future I do not again speak of things that are upsetting to you. That is certainly not my intentions.

Thanks,

Mary Ann

[orion77]

Hello MG,

This has to do with Christ fulfilling the law of Moses and bringing in the new covenant.  We are no longer under law, but grace.  Being baptized unto Christs death, by maturing to the point of being crucified with Christ is finally getting past the law, and into His life.  For by His death we are atoned of our sins, but we are saved by His life. 

The old covenant is the administration of death, now thankfully by the grace of God, no longer has a hold onto us, who follow Jesus, and live by faith. 


(Mat 4:13 LITV)  And having left Nazareth, having come He lived at Capernaum, beside the sea in the districts of Zebulun and Naphtali,

(Mat 4:14 LITV)  so that might be fulfilled that spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

(Mat 4:15 LITV)  "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations:

(Mat 4:16 LITV)  the people sitting in darkness saw a great Light; and to those sitting in the region and shadow of death, Light sprang up to them." Isa. 9:1, 2


The 'shadow of death', we all by now know what that refers to.  Light has sprang up, but as we have all learned they love the darkness.  This is speaking of the ushering in of the new covenant, but they refuse to let go of the old.  The obedient ones follow Christ, not Moses.  Moses was a shadow, but Jesus is the real thing. 


(Rom 6:21 LITV)  Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

(Rom 6:22 LITV)  But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life.


The bible is plumb full of book, chapter, and verses that plainly speak of the passing of the old to the new, the darkness to the light, yet most love the darkness.  They just can't seem to get past the old and into the new.  Obedience and faith go hand in hand in following Christ into the law of faith, into life, dying to the law of Moses and into the glorious light of Christ, where the yoke is much lighter.

Read and study the entire book of Hebrews, it makes it much plainer than I can.  Also the book of Romans, especially the 5th and 6th chapters.

Hope this helps, God bless.

Gary

[Kat]

Hi MG,

I was looking at the verses you showed again
and found that the Good News bible uses a simple language,
that might help in understanding this.

Rom 6:3  For surely you know that when we were baptized into union with Christ Jesus, we were baptized into union with his death.
Rom 6:4  By our baptism, then, we were buried with him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life.
Rom 6:5  For since we have become one with him in dying as he did, in the same way we shall be one with him by being raised to life as he was.
Rom 6:6  And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross, in order that the power of the sinful self might be destroyed, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7  For when we die, we are set free from the power of sin.
Rom 6:8  Since we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Rom 6:11  In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God through Christ Jesus.

Rom 7:4  That is how it is with you, my friends. As far as the Law is concerned, you also have died because you are part of the body of Christ; and now you belong to him who was raised from death in order that we might be useful in the service of God.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[orion77]

(1Jo 3:4 LITV)  Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

(1Jo 3:5 LITV)  And you know that that One was revealed that He might take away our sins, and sin is not in Him.

(1Jo 3:6 LITV)  Everyone remaining in Him does not sin. Everyone sinning has not seen Him, nor known Him.

(1Jo 3:7 LITV)  Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.

(1Jo 3:8 LITV)  The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the devil.

(1Jo 3:9 LITV)  Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.


How are the above words possible, when we all know ourselves we are sinners.  It becomes different when under the faith of Christ, we are not under the physical law anymore, and if not under the law, where is the sin?  But do we willfully sin?  No, God forbid, yet we still sin, as Paul plainly put it. 

Now we no longer try to live good out of fear of punishment, but we live good, because of the love of God and His Christ, who in we cry Abba, Father.  Difference is darkness and light.

God bless,

Gary

[MG]

Thank you all.

You've given me a lot to think about.