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[SandyFla]

Revelation 20:

11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I've heard sermons on this passage for years, and each time the preachers would say this judgment is solely for unbelievers who will be turned into hell, aka the lake of fire. However, verse 15 says, "whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life ..." which indicates that some of the people at the judgment WILL have their names written in the book of life and will not be turned into a place they call hell.

Just another lie taught by Babylon.

Sandy

[mongoose]

Yep.  Interesting how people can ignore things written in plain language when they aren't given to see.  I also have always liked the part where "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire (interesting image if you believed hell = lake of fire  ) before those who's names were not found written in the book of life.  The contradictions one has to maintain or ignore to hold some of those beliefs are amazing, aren't they?

mongoose

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Sandy

...also the Book of Life is not a book....and there are two judgements! ...now and then....AND two types!...

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Sandy,

I have a different understanding of this verse.

However, verse 15 says, "whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life ..." which indicates that some of the people at the judgment WILL have their names written in the book of life and will not be turned into a place they call hell.

If your name is written in the Book of Life,
you will be resurrected into the kingdom at Christ's return.
This will begin the reign of judgment on the rest of the world.

Rev 20:4-6  Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (This whole verse is talking about the resurrected saints)v.5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. v.6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection will only be for those who belong to Christ, He in them and they in Him.

1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

All those who lived before Christ must go through judgment, along with the rest of humanity that were not chosen after Christ came.
The great White throne judgment is the thousand years (kingdom),
and that is when all the dead will be brought to life.
Those whose name is in the book of life are already ressurected,
and at this great white throne judgment the saints will be judging all the rest mankind.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html  ------------------------------------------

excerpt from Ray's article - 'God judges the world in a pond'

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:

"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).

Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
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God does have mercy on those who never knew Christ,
and those you might consider good but was not chosen.

Luk 12:48  But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[kennymac]

HELLO,

It's amazing, these verses are so clear, the hardest thing to break free of is false doctrine.

The4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This is obviously a partial resurrection, because not all men are raised to life at this time. Only those who are called to "reign with Christ for a thousand years" are raised in the first resurrection. "The rest of the dead" are NOT raised until the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years. The first resurrection, therefore, includes only the heads of the people--that is, those who are called to rule in the Kingdom during the Age of Tabernacles. This is why Paul speaks of the "trumpet" (singular) which the angel will blow, calling them forth from the graves. It fulfills Moses' prophecy of the single trumpet that was to summon only the rulers of the people.
When the apostle Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead, he usually speaks of the first resurrection, rather than the second. Consequently, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, , the dead are raised "at the last trumpet" (singular). Paul identifies those raised as "the dead in Christ," NOT ALL the dead, small and great. In other words, the first resurrection is a limited resurrection; the second is general that includes the rest of the dead.
 
Revelation 20 does NOT tell us that ALL BELIEVERS are to be raised in the first resurrection. He merely tells us that ONLY BELIEVERS will be raised in the first resurrection. This may seem like an odd point to make, since most Christians assume that all believers are raised at the same time. But other scriptures compel us to question this common assumption. Jesus spoke of the second resurrection in John 5:28 and 29.
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
 
It is plain that Jesus was not referring to the first resurrection, which was limited to ONLY believers. Jesus says that "an hour is coming" where ALL will be raised, and at that time some will be given life (immortality), while others will be judged. It is obvious that this cannot be a reference to the first resurrection. This can only refer to the second resurrection recorded in the latter verses of Revelation 20,
 
11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Notice especially that in this general resurrection the Book of Life is mentioned. The wording in verse 15 implies that many WERE found written in the Book of Life. Nowhere does it tell us that no one in the general resurrection could be found in that Book. Nor does it anywhere imply that everyone raised at this time should be cast into the lake of fire.
 
We can only conclude, then, that in the general resurrection at the end of the thousand-year Tabernacles Age the angel will blow BOTH trumpets. This will summon the entire congregation (Church) from the grave--except for the rulers, of course, who had been summoned a thousand years earlier. The Church as a whole, then, will be raised from the dead at the end of the thousand years along with all the unbelievers. Here the unbelievers will be judged by the "lake of fire," while the congregation of non-ruling believers will receive life (immortality). Church just doesn't see this.

God bless,

[Kat]

Hi Kennymac,

I agree with what you were saying up until the last part.

Nowhere does it tell us that no one in the general resurrection could be found in that Book. Nor does it anywhere imply that everyone raised at this time should be cast into the lake of fire.

We can only conclude, then, that in the general resurrection at the end of the thousand-year Tabernacles Age the angel will blow BOTH trumpets. This will summon the entire congregation (Church) from the grave--except for the rulers, of course, who had been summoned a thousand years earlier. The Church as a whole, then, will be raised from the dead at the end of the thousand years along with all the unbelievers. Here the unbelievers will be judged by the "lake of fire," while the congregation of non-ruling believers will receive life (immortality). Church just doesn't see this.

I'll just let Ray's article explain who will be judged in the lake of fire.

Excerpts are taken from Ray's Lake of Fire article 12 --------------------------

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

The whore is a great church, and it sits on a wild beast (a great political system), and John, "…saw a wild beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA (Rev. 13:1). This beast does not rise up out of one particular sea, that is one particular nation or people or multitude or tongue, but out of ALL OF THEM.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives THE WHOLE WORLD…" (Rev. 12:5).

And the waters on which the whore sits are called, "…peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." In other words, the whore sits upon ALL THE SEA; ALL THE PEOPLES AND MULTITUDES AND LANGUAGES AND NATIONS OF THE ENTIRE EARTH! And she RIDES the wild beast that came up out of this same great and vast sea of humanity.

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[orion77]

I think the book of Revelations is more of a spiritual book of the revealing of Christ to each believer, each in his own time.  Christ now reigns in His elect during each generation since the resurrection.  There has always been a few who have Christ in them.

(2Co 6:16 LITV)  And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are a temple of the living God, even as God said, "I will" dwell in them and "walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Lev. 26:12; Ezek. 37:27

His kingdom is within and is now, for those with Christ Spirit in them.  For the elect sakes, having being put to death in His baptism and spiritually risen, now live for Christ.  He reigns as king of kings in our hearts and spirit. 

The resurrection is Jesus Christ.  I think that word is used spiritually also, rising from death to life, is talking about a spiritual awakening, that happens to those with Christ in them, and are obedient, moving from faith to faith.  The thousand year reign, is symbolic for the elect through history, that have God ruling in the temple.  His kingdom is not of this world,

(Joh 17:3 LITV)  And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

(Joh 17:11 LITV)  And no longer am I in the world, yet these are in the world; and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, those whom You gave to Me, that they may be one as We are.

(Joh 17:14 LITV)  I have given them Your Word, and the world hated them because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world.

(Joh 17:16 LITV)  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

(Joh 17:24 LITV)  Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that where I am, they may be with Me also, that they may behold My glory which You gave Me, because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

(Joh 17:26 LITV)  And I made known to them Your name, and will make it known, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.


(Joh 18:36 LITV)  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here.

(Joh 18:37 LITV)  Then Pilate said to Him, Are You really a king? Jesus answered, You say that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I might witness to the Truth. Everyone being of the Truth hears My voice.


Christ returns to each of us individually, in Spirit and power, to witness to our spirit, each in Gods own time.  Should we be looking for Christ to come in a physical glory to rule this world?  When Jesus came the first time, what were the Jews looking for Christ to accomplish?  His words are Spirit, His kingdom is Spirit, and He is Spirit, now.

God bless,

Gary

[Kat]

 
Hi Gary,

I agree with everything you said,
but the elect will also be in the kingdom on the physical earth,
at Christ's return.
I have put together from Ray's material what I feel is proof that we will reign with Christ,
on earth for a symbolic 1000 yrs. at His return.

http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html ---------------------------------

IS THE BOOK OF REVELATION A HISTORY OR A PROPHECY?

The contents of this prophecy started with the vision of John on Patmos two thousand years ago and will continue until the return of Christ and the judgment of the world, and continues even beyond that until the end of the ages spoken of in this prophecy!
The whole book of Revelation is a book about the LIFE OF JESUS written for:

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To HIM [any individual member of the churches] that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

Is this the sole reward of "HIM that overcomes?" NO!

"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it" (2:17).

"And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (2:26).

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raimnent; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels" (3:5).

"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name" (3:11).

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (3:21).

-http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html-----------------------------

"…and will give him a white stone and in the stone a new name" (Rev.2: 17)

Now we learned that this stone is really a pebble which is a symbol for a ballot, which acquits us of guilt and justifies us, allowing for our admission or entrance into the Kingdom, signed and signified by Jesus Himself. If we continue to overcome, this white signed, ballot stone of entrance into the Kingdom is waiting for us with OUR NAME on it. Remember "as Jesus is, SO ARE WE…" His name is OUR name. If we continue to overcome, we will be given another great reward.

"And he that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (Ver. 26).

"And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endures TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED" (Matt. 10:22).

THEN we will be qualified to have "power over the nations." But reigning requires that we be RIGHTEOUS. We must reign the nations with spiritual power, not with military might. Our motives and our love must be PURE.

"Him that overcomes will I make a PILLAR IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD" (Ver. 12).

A pillar is a main support in a temple. It speaks of a position of GREAT DISTINGUISHED RESPONSIBILITY at the Spiritual Headquarters of the entirety of the universe in Mt. Zion. But if He is going to give us ALL THAT HE HAS, He expects us to do as He DID and become what He IS.

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me on My throne, EVEN AS I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (Ver. 21).

We are to overcome "even as" Jesus Christ conquered and overcame. What was it that Jesus Christ "overcame?" John 16:33,

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world [which MUST be overcome and conquered!]" (I John 2:15-16).

We are to also "overcome the world" just as Jesus did. Not by ourselves, but by Jesus "Christ IN us, the hope of GLORY." Christ lives His life IN the believer, and in the believer Christ will, "overcome the world," over and over again in each new believer. And then one day, Jesus Christ will say to YOU, "Sit with Me on My throne—We are going to save the Universe together."

We already read in Romans 8 that the whole creation is groaning for the manifestation of Sons and Daughters (saviours) to free this world from its vanity and corruption.

And so, there is ONE church, and all overcomers from that church receive ONE reward, the SAME reward, and that reward is CHRIST and all that His many symbols and names represent, all that He IS ("as He is, so are WE in the world"), and in the Kingdom of God as well. These are the highest and most glorious honors ever to be bestowed upon a man or woman of the human race!

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html--------------------------

Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!

Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail to Ray
Kingdom
« on: August 01, 2006, 06:48:36 AM »

Ray's reply
Dear Laura:
The "Kingdom of God" is the kingdom that will rule the nations under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, composed of lesser kings, lords, priests, and judges.  These kings, lords, priests, and judges, are composed of the ranks of God's Chosen Elect Saints.

Only those worthy of the First resurrection from the death will ever rule with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Those who are judged, purified and saved in the Great White Throne Judgment will be in God's family, but they will never be rulers with Christ.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm-------------------------------

Now this is not hard to follow. The above is Paul’s description of how Christ will return for "all who believe." He comes in power and glory and is dealing out vengeance to the ungodly and is being glorified in His saints. This same description of His second coming is found in Rev 11:15-18, "... And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His Christ’s and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons. Amen!’... Thou hast taken Thy great power and does reign.
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Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Hope I have helped in this.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

Good scriptures.

I love the Concordant version calling Revelations "The Unveiling". It is the unveiling of Christ Himself to us.  I try to remember that as I read the long verses that are so symbolic and metaphoric.  If you read, say, Isaiah, He uses lots of lofty phrases, mysterious, violent, etc. when all he meant was a city was going to be overtaken by enemies.

I am amazed at Christendoms trying to take every single word and make it literal. Yes, a Real dragon will come out of the sea.....

I must admit to being a little fuzzy on the details, and every point seems valid when used with scripture.  Is physical Israel in with the believing (non elect) or with the non-believers judgement? Is the LAKE of FIRE people, or God's divining fire.  Do people get punished for eons of eons or is this all in a matter of seconds?? Is it a purging in fire to make Hitlers of the world bow their knee or just one glance into the Lamb's eyes?  Can we just make Revelations all inward and spiritual only to us, or is there "some hell to pay"?  Like I say, fuzzy!

How important is it to know or think we know what happens?  Is it more imp. to try to live as Jesus wants us to and to get to know Him? The details He will take care of.

Just some of my thoughts that periodically surface!
Not speaking about anyone here!  Good Lord, don't think that for a moment.
Love you all,
gena

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

You are right,
if God doesn't lead you to seek out the understanding of something,
it is not important for you to understand it now.
We are all guided by His spirit to learn things as He reveals it.

John 16:12  I have much more to say to you, but right now it would be more than you could understand.
v.13  The Spirit shows what is true and will come and guide you into the full truth. The Spirit doesn't speak on his own. He will tell you only what he has heard from Me, and he will let you know what is going to happen.
v.14  The Spirit will bring glory to Me by taking My message and telling it to you.

Ray has been given much knowledge, and brings much understanding to these confusing scripture.
As he puts it out on his papers,
I am only to happy to seek to understand it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[orion77]

A thousand years is a day to the Lord, that is interesting.

(Psa 90:4 LITV)  For a thousand years in Your eyes are as a day, yesterday, when it passes, and as a watch in the night.

(1Th 5:1 LITV)  But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need for it to be written.

(1Th 5:2 LITV)  For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes.

(1Th 5:3 LITV)  For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape.

(1Th 5:4 LITV)  But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief.

(1Th 5:5 LITV)  You are all sons of light and sons of day; we are not of night, nor of darkness.

(1Th 5:6 LITV)  So then, we should not sleep, as the rest also do, but we should watch and be sober.

(1Th 5:7 LITV)  For those sleeping sleep by night, and those having been drunk are drunk by night.

(1Th 5:8 LITV)  But we being of day should be sober, "having put on the breastplate" of faith and love, and the hope of "salvation as a helmet;" Isa. 59:17

(2Pe 3:10 LITV)  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with rushing sound, and having burned the elements will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be burned up.


Here the Lord is dividing the day into darkness (the night) and the day (light).  We were once in darkness, but now when the light of Christ dawns upon us, all of our own hay and stubble are burnt up and dissolved.

(Heb 13:8 LITV)  Jesus Christ, the same yesterday and today and forever.

(Heb 3:7 LITV)  Because of this, even as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear His voice,

(Heb 3:8 LITV)  do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness,

(Heb 3:13 LITV)  But exhort yourselves each day, as long as it is being called today, that not any of you be hardened by the deceit of sin.

(Heb 3:14 LITV)  For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

(Heb 3:15 LITV)  as in the saying, "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation." Psalm 95:7,8 MT

(Eph 5:14 LITV)  Because of this, He says, Arise, sleeping ones and stand up out of the dead ones, and Christ will shine on you. No OT passage

(1Th 5:10 LITV)  He dying on our behalf, so that whether we watch or we sleep, we may live together with Him.

(1Th 5:11 LITV)  Therefore, encourage one another, and build up one another, as you indeed do.

(Rom 14:8 LITV)  For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Then both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.

(Rom 14:9 LITV)  For this Christ both died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

(Rom 14:10 LITV)  But why do you judge your brother? Or why also do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

He is Lord over the dead and the living, this is spiritual and not physical.  The dead are yesterday, the living are today.  He is the same yesterday, today and forever.  He shows mercy to those in darkness as well as to those who are in the Light and will always be showing His mercy.

God bless,

Gary

[snorky]

Feels good to be back here after taking a week off...let's me get everything into perspective.

Gena I appreciate what you said: "How important is it to know or think we know what happens?  Is it more imp. to try to live as Jesus wants us to and to get to know Him? The details He will take care of."

And you too Kat: "If God doesn't lead you to seek out the understanding of something,
it is not important for you to understand it now. We are all guided by His spirit to learn things as He reveals it."

A lot of wisdom in these two statements. All of us here need to live precisely as Jesus wants us to...even if it seems sometimes that what he wants us to do seems "contrary" to what we understand in the Bible. For instance: "Come out of her (Christendom) my people," in Revelation. JESUS WILL CALL...DRAG!...us out of the church system. We must not pretend that, just by "leaving" a church...you know, going through the motions...we are "called out." JESUS MUST set it up so that we have no choice (free will, whatever). for instance, when Arcturus was "kicked out" of his church.

And there are other examples I'm sure I could mention, but this is the one I have had to grapple with. I am just going to let Jesus handle calling me out of the nondenominationa tiny community church I go to (for sure, the pastor would never kick me out...he knows I don't agree with him on the rapture and other stuff...and I'm not the only one).

I really think that, if we only let Jesus take charge and stop "trying" (through our own efforts alone) to live like He would, will we be purified spiritually in the fiery trials of living in a world that hates, that makes war, that aborts babies, that kills the mind and the soul...you get the idea. So we need to overcome the world AND our "trying" to do so by going through the motions, and TOTALLY DEPEND ON HIM TO LEAD US!

Praise Christ, and may the Holy Spirit continue to be with you Gena and Kat and all of you here!

Snorky (Deb)

[gmik]

Thank you Deb!
gena