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[TimothyVI]

Hi everyone.
I do not post often. I am too busy reading all of Ray's papers as well as his email responses.
The rest of the time on this forum I read what each of you have to say.

But I have a question that is assuredly not a very intelligent one. I hope you forgive me.
I can't find the answer in any of Rays papers, or the search function on this forum.

I wonder why Christians revere the instrument of Christ's death, the cross.
If our Lord had been shot would we wear little guns around our neck? Or say that we
must come to the gun to receive Jesus? If He had been hung would we love the rope?

Believe me, I am not being flippant. I truly do not understand this apparent reverence of the cross.

I apologize if this kind of question is innapropriate for this forum because it was not part of
the lake of fire series. If that is the case then moderators, feel free to delete this thread.
My feelings will not be hurt.

Blessing to all,

Tim

[Andy_MI]

Hi Tim,

I was thinking about this first thing this morning, it was the first thing in my mind this morning so maybe this is the reason. I was shown this while ago in one of the "moments of clarity" experiences and I'll share it with you.

This is taken from Vine's expository dictionary of new testament words.

Greek word for cross it "stauros"

It denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb (stauroo), to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tamuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt.  By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith.  In order to increase prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system, pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols.  Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.


Tim, I also found it interesting the it says that the symbol's origin is from Chaldea =  Babylon

I hope this helps,

Andy

[YellowStone]

Tim asked:

I wonder why Christians revere the instrument of Christ's death, the cross.
If our Lord had been shot would we wear little guns around our neck? Or say that we
must come to the gun to receive Jesus? If He had been hung would we love the rope?

Tim, this is not a flippant question at all.

Due to some twisted mode of thinking, they think that the cross is the symbol of God's promise of Salvation. Really? Like you say, would we wear guns or ropes instead?

It is the fact that Christ died AND was resurrected on the third day that bore our and their salvation.

Granted, they may argue the following verse:

Mat 10:38  

• And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

But in response, one could assert that hanging a cross above the alter, or wearing one around ones neck was not what Christ was meaning.

It would then appear that the word "Cross" in this scripture could be substituted for the word "Truth." I wonder how many "christians" would tie the cross to truth.

The truth is that the cross has no place in worship.

Jhn 4:24  

• God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 5:21

• Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Deu 7:25  

• The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God.

Christ fulfilled the law, therefore even more so, we are to worship in spirit and truth and flee from physical distractions.

Great question.

God Bless you,

Darren

[SandyFla]

Hi Tim,

I've asked myself the same question, and have come to the conclusion that Christians tend to worship the cross more than the One who died on it.  Especially in songs like "The Old Rugged Cross," which state: "I will cling to the old rugged cross" (what about clinging to Christ?) and "The Old Rugged Cross Made The Difference." Preachers will also extol the virtues and power of the cross. Of course, they're thinking of Jesus, but to the listener, it seems like the cross is their end-all. They put more emphasis on the cross, as if Jesus is still there (which is something the Protestants don't like about Catholic crucifixes).

Sandy

[TimothyVI]

Thanks Andy, Darren and Sandy.

I am sure happy that I am not the only one that thinks about things like that.

When I mentioned it to my wife she just acted disgusted and said that I
nit pick too much. But the Bereans were considered nobler because when
they were told something they searched the scriptures to prove it.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Darren,

In Mat 10:38 
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

If the cross meant the crucifiction cross, the desciples would not have even know
of what Jesus spoke, would they? They knew nothing of the crucification when Jesus
spoke this. So if Jesus told them to take up their cross and follow him, could the cross have
meant something completely different, and personal to each of them to whom he spoke?

Still a little confused about Mat. 10:38

Thank you for your patience.

Tim

[orion77]

Hello Tim,

I have often thought about that as well.  Have you looked that word 'cross' up under Strongs and got the definition?  Here it is, maybe this can help somewhat.


G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.


Here is some more that will help.

(Rom 6:5 LITV)  For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,

(Rom 6:6 LITV)  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

(Rom 6:7 LITV)  For the one that died has been justified from sin.

(Gal 2:20 LITV)  I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf.

(Gal 5:24 LITV)  But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.


The cross of Christ has alot more deeper truths, than the ones who want the outward appearance, so to be seen by others.  As Jesus said many times, they have their reward. 

Hope this helps brother,

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

Darren,

In Mat 10:38 
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

If the cross meant the crucifiction cross, the desciples would not have even know
of what Jesus spoke, would they? They knew nothing of the crucification when Jesus
spoke this. So if Jesus told them to take up their cross and follow him, could the cross have
meant something completely different, and personal to each of them to whom he spoke?

Still a little confused about Mat. 10:38

Thank you for your patience.

Tim

Yes Tim,

This "taking up your cross" is meant for each and every individual He has chosen, not that anyone has to literally get nailed to a stake or a cross, but that we seek His will first, and in the process die to our flesh, our carnal nature.

Remember that the desciples really did not understand much of anything Jesus spoke to them during His earthly ministry, it was only after His death, resurrection and the gift of His Spirit at Pentecost that their eyes truly began to be opened.

Here is Matthew 10:38 in a couple other versions that I believe help to clarify;

Matthew 10:38 (The Message)

 38-39"If you don't go all the way with me, through thick and thin, you don't deserve me. If your first concern is to look after yourself, you'll never find yourself. But if you forget about yourself and look to me, you'll find both yourself and me.

Matthew 10:38 (Amplified Bible)
   
38And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me [[a]cleave steadfastly to Me, conforming wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also] is not worthy of Me.

Paul and Peter both spoke of this same process although not in the same words;

Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

We are to follow Him in all things, His life on earth is, was and will be a blueprint for all His called and chosen through the ages, the cross is but another parable to be understood through His Spirit.


Mat 13:10  And the disciples came and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 
Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

This is why most of Christiandom get the message of the cross wrong.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

[TimothyVI]

Gary and Joe, thank you very much.
That did help me to better understand what that
verse is teaching.

Tim

[jennie]

Hey ya'll! It's just Jennie again without much spiritual insight or what have you about this. All I can speak is of myself in regard to the cross. I have a little tiny pendant that Michael bought me for our first Christmas together. It is a cross in the center but surrounded by a circle. To me , it is a reminder of several things... the love of my husband in giving it to me, the love and sacrifice that Jesus showed to me and the circle has no end or beginning. That reminds me that God's love cannot be measured. That is hard to wrap my mind around. The sacrifice of Jesus and the love of God forgave me who did not deserve forgiveness and love. `For anyone out here who doesn't know already... I was  a child who thought I was marked for badness because of my circumstances in life. Forgive my blunt way of saying this... I was molested from age 3 until 17 years old, raped  several times starting at age 11 and all by family or friends of family. I felt very worthless. When I was 17 years old I was (I think the term used at the forum) was drawn by God to Jesus. Oh I forgot to say , in the middle of all the beatings and molestings I found alcohol helped my pain in body and mind. When I was "drawn to Jesus" it was almost unbelievable to me that I could be loved that much. It makes me cry as I sit here and write ya'll about it. Not sad tears but happy and still awestruck that God who created everything could love even such a damaged person as me. I couldn't marry my sweet Michael without telling him that I was " damaged goods". It wouldn't have been fair to him. He was the first person who knew what happened and told me it wasn't my fault and loved me anyway! The damage ,physically, was so bad that we had trouble conceiving our child but were blessed to have one child. Michael knew what happened so that is how come he got me the little cross in the circle to wear so I would always be reminded even on the hard days when I still feel so bad about what happened. I ran into one the family male friends who happened to be one who had done this to me. Time has taken it's toll on him. I felt compelled to go up to him . Michael and I were at a little old restaurant. I went to the man and shook his hand and wished him well in his life. Sounds silly I know but for some reason I just had to. My Michael said he didn't know how I could forgive the man and I don't either but I do. If God himself can forgive me how could I not forgive this person? I don't know why I felt the need tho tell ya'll about this. Maybe there is someone out there who went through the same thing and it will help them. anyway, now ya'll know why I wear my little cross in the circle... to remind me of God's enduring love and forgiveness. Much love, Jennie

[hillsbororiver]

Jennie,

That just shows the Love of Christ is in you dear Sister, what a beautiful although bittersweet story. Thank you for posting it.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[orion77]

Jennie,

You have been through more than I could imagine, and came through with the Spirit of Christ, to forgive one of those.  Thank you for sharing, your actions speak louder than words.  God has blessed you with His Spirit and all those sufferings is and will be nothing compared to the glory that is in Christ, which is in you.  What a great day it will be, when God is all in all.

Seeing that you posted that in this thread, don't worry about that cross around your neck.  You earned it, and we all know it is not for any type of show, it's between you and God.

God bless your heart,

Gary

[jennie]

Thank ya'll so much for your encouraging words. I can't express how blessed I feel to have ya'll in my life! Always, Jennie

[gmik]

Jennie thank you for sharing with us. Now I know why you were crying after your daughter's wedding--She is a special precious gift to you from our Lord! Jennie all your posts are filled with His love, your Michael, your church group, your cross, christmas, everything.  I am so glad you have been posting again.

Love you much,
gena

[TimothyVI]

Jennie, I would say God bless you, but he already has.
With a loving, caring husband, a beautiful child and most of all the
wisdom and knowledge that Jesus is in you now to bring you
life more abundantly.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with viewing the cross and allowing
it to remind us of what Jesus did for us, and is still doing. I only question why
the church has almost made it an idol, or graven image to be
worshipped.

I know that in the church that I attend, yes I haven't yet come out of her,
we are always being told to come to the cross. Not to come to Jesus.
The cross, after all was the instrument that was used to kill our Lord.
So my original question was why do christians seem to revere the instrument
of His death.

Thank you for posting in this thread. You were God's blessing to me this
morning.

Tim

[jennie]

Thank you Tim. You are right about  preachers saying "come to the cross". I don't understand that either. We are supposed to be drawn to Jesus and not a hunk of wood.