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[Kat]

Hi Gena,

I sympathize with your situation.  Going against the flow is not easy
I too am in a difficult situation.
I was in a church 10 yrs ago, where we did not celebrate christmas at all,
I was in that church for 15 yrs, not keeping christmas.
But I left and went back to a mainstream church, and gradually but totally was involved with christmas again, that's been the last 10yrs.
So now I have to stop all over again, and my 3 girls (17,19,and 23) are not happy about it.
Well, it was kinda simple for me, I just told them I would not do any of it myself,
but they could do it all on there own and I would not oppose them.
It really does not bother me that other people, even my girls, want to do it.
I feel like it really matters how I deal with the situations as they come along.
I love my family and I will not try to force them to do or even understand, what I have to do.
So just do what you feel is the right thing, God will guide you as you go.
Hope you can have peace and trust God to help you through it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

Thank you Kat!
gena

[mongoose]

Gena,
   You didn't tell your kids about Santa?  Sorry for the curiosity.  My husband and I don't have kids but if God brings kids into our lives, we dont' want to tell them all that garbage either.  Did your family object?  What did you say to them?  We made a brief foray into saying we didn't believe in teaching kids fairy tales about santa and the tooth fairy and 4-5 of our relatives all decided to yell at us at once.  Sorry if this is inappropriately curious.

mongoose

[gmik]

Hi Mongoose, Yes, I got a similar reaction from the family as you did. We didn't deny the fact of Santa to the kids, they just knew he was pretend, so I never forbade Santa dolls and what not. My kids went to a Christian school and even there lots of kids Believed in him! But they got thru it....the worst was Halloween!  My family thought we were nuts- my kids couldn't dress up or go trick or treating-and they thought we were depriving them of so much!  One year when the kids were older, church started offering an alternative type party and we let them attend that.

I have a "christian" aunt who would fill me in on all the gossip that my family was saying about me. I always sent Christian greeting cards, birthday cards etc.  They would even comment about that-Oh, guess who this is from?? sneer sneer. I always was pleasant around them and never brought up anything controversial. After awhile (years) things calmed down.

One time, the kids were staying at my mom's and she showed them a scary movie called the Devil Dog...they had never seen anything like that!  She knew I would be mad but did it anyway.  My kids still talk about how scaird they were!!

It is not always easy to know the best thing to do with your kids. I wish I knew then all the stuff I know now- you will have it easier I think when your kids come along.

My kids never felt deprived, or wierd, or anything. But I found out years later that as teens when they went to a sleep-over they would trick or treat or toilet-paper houses!!!!

 
gena

[Andy_MI]

Good thread eveyone!

My 27 year old son called me about a month ago and we got on the subject of beleifs and such. He thanked me that I never taught him the whole "christmas" lie about santa claus and all the gift giving rutuals that most people like to partake of. He said that he really appreciated me telling him the truth about christmas being a pagan holiday.

Back when I made that decision (prayfully) to not go along with my family's desire to teach my son to believe in santa claus I was given a lot of grief from my mom and dad and sister. They thought it was such a horrible thing not to tell my son that santa claus is real.  They wanted me to tell him the same lie that they told me as a child.

I shared with my parents how much that lie messed me up as a child when I found out that it was all a lie! I felt angry, confused, let down etc. Because of that I refused to follow that same trend and rather give the truth. And I was rewarded last month with my son's phone call to me thanking me for that. He also has two children of his own and he is going to be truthful with them as well.  That really blessed my heart!

I think our Father is always pleased when we want to please Him and do what's right and true in His eyes. Even and especially when it goes against the majority.

I like what Kat brought out in Ray's teaching on the subject especially this quote:

SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
What does God think of the religion and wisdom and customs of Egypt?
It means that virtually everything about Christendom—from its name ‘Church,’ to the architecture of their buildings, to the origin of their holy days and doctrines, is all straight out of heathenism,
of which God Almighty declares:
"LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN… inquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Jer. 10:2 & Deut. 12:30).

I feel that if we are lacks concerning one pagan holiday than participating in others becomes easier also.  Can anyone say Halloween??? Easter???

The only holiday we have that isn't pagan in it's roots seems to be Thanksgiving.

We and I mean (me) should make pleasing our Father the number one priority in our life.

Peace,

Andy

[longhorn]

Christmas just hasn't been the same since old Bing left us.   

Longhorn

[iris]

I would like to thank everyone for sharing their christian views and scriptures. Kat and Rene thanks for posting what Ray had to say about Christmas. It has given me a lot to think about, and to pray about.

Love to All
Iris

[TimothyVI]

I would like to share just one more side to the santa clause thing.

My Mother raised my two brothers and I all by herself. We were rich in love but very poor
in monetary things. My Mother let us enjoy getting a present on Christmas without feeling
guilty about her sacrifice. She did this by allowing us to believe that someone else, santa clause, gave it to us.

When I was finally old enough to realize that santa was a fairy tale, I really did not enjoy
getting any kind of present on Christmas because I knew that my mother could not
afford to buy those kinds of things.

I don't know if believing that some kindly old man gives little children presents on Christmas
is wrong or not. Giving santa a position above jesus in importance is of course wrong.
My mother never did that. In our house Christmas was a celebration of the birth of Jesus,
and santa was someone that gave little children a gift because he was also celebrating the
joy of the birth of Christ.

I don't know, I guess that when I was very young, I am glad that there was a santa
in my growing up.

Would I do that again with my children, maybe not.
Tim

[jennie]

One of my favorite Christmas memories was when I was about 14 years old. Our Daddy was an alcoholic and he and my Mama had divorced when I was 10 years old. I got a work permit and got a mill job to help pay the bills. Our Mama sort of had a breakdown and didn't want us anymore. She did her thing and I took care of me and my little brother. I had saved a dollar a week out of my paycheck and was able to get my Mama a pair of earrings and a book. I got my brother some little toys to put under the tree. I was so happy to be able to get those little presents for them. I did get my Daddy a little gift too. Me and my brother got to stay in our home. We didn't get taken away or anything. We just didn't let anyone know we didn't have parents at home all the time. I was big enough to take care of us. I was already 10 years old and my little brother  was 8. Life sometimes throws hard things our way but  I think in our case it made us appreciate the good times even more.Much love, Jennie

[Bill]

Hello,

Thanks to all that posted.  A lot of good stuff here and this came just about a perfect time as we are evaluating how we are going to handle christmas in our household and with family.  Odd thing is my wife and I both see christmas as a pagan holiday but our reason for not celebrating are a little different.

One thing to note that many of those and I believe including Ray and Mike stopped celebrating christmas while in Babylon.   

I think we should ask ourselves why celebrate christmas?  And then evaluate those reasons to determine if they align with the spirit of God.

God Bless

[ned]

To quote Darren:

Joe may God bless you

Your simple answer removed the confusion. duh! 

Joe wrote:

It is all in the heart, is it the utmost desire of a man's heart to please God? That pleases Him.

I cannot fault your reasoning here.

........

These few words are amazing to me. Joe you have absolutely know idea how God has used you tonight.
end quote

2Thes1:3  (KJV) 
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly,
and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth...

     

[Deborah-Leigh]

I like what everyone is saying here.

For me a birthday is actually an EARTHday!...What do you think about this idea?...I base it on 2 Cor 5:16 Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a purley human point of view ( that was NO ONE... Any thoughts?)...in terms of natural standards or value (could Paul mean here Birthdays ?) No even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now we have such knowledge of Him that we know Him no longer in terms of the flesh.

1 Cor 2:2 For I resolved (I think he meant it!) to know nothing, and to be conscious of nothing among you except Jesus Christ the Messiah and Him crucified.

It is important what you say Joe,  Paul was not interested in human parties or man made traditions. We are no longer under the law.
Mark : 2 27 And Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made on account and for the sake of man, not man for the Sabbath.

I think everyday is the birth of Christ because He is born..... everyday is Easter because He has died and for us now there is no condemnation.  everyday is a present because of His Spirit .. because HE is the same Yesterday Today and Tomorrow.

The first miracle performed by Jesus was at a Wedding.....would he have been there if it were a earthday party?....What is an earthday party....it is a carnal celebration...I think that is what Paul was alluding to when he admonished and cautioned us in the spirit! Nothing wrong with that either!

1 Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, b ut the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God ".....(not knowing any longer the things that are given or offered by the world!)

Arcturus 

[gmik]

I like that:     "Everyday is a present"   

Life is a Gift and we should rejoice everymorning when we get up!

From the rising of the sun, tothe going down of the same....

Thank you Jesus for this present!!!

gena

[Madeline]

I sort of disagree with those who celebrate Christimas. We are told to separate ourselves from the world and its traditions.

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
I am open to correction.

Love,
Madeline

[Bill]

. We are told to separate ourselves from the world

How does one separate themselves from the world?

To me it is a spiritual matter not physical.


Bill

[Madeline]

The physical world sometimes reflects the spiritual. If someone has a fancy car, goes to clubs and loves to dress in rich clothing—this physical reflects whats in the inside of this person.

Love,
Madeline

[Michele]

Well, I am feeling odd after reading this discussion.  Everything that goes on in daily life is "pagan"  it seems.  Birthdays, all the fun childhood holiday's Easter, Christmas and halloween.  Days of the months, days of the week, seasons.  All of it.  All of the traditional holiday's that are the very foundations of close families.

It frightens me when i see all the different responces to it.  Sometimes all I know to do is ask myself how I feel about something...as I've always thought of God as being my conscience.  Does doing this that or the other make me feel bad is the way I answer things when everything else is confusion to me.

I love Christmas and the other holidays as they were always times when famillies got together to spend time together and have fun fellowship together.  I know now that the tree/lights/etc are pagan derived. (as is nearly everything in daily life)  I know that a birthday is "pagan".  I do not consciously worship anyone but Jesus/God.  Some of the most wonderful memories of my life are the beautiful holiday's when my mother did everything she could to make our lives a little "magical" and she did it out of pure love, the same as I do with my child.  I told her (my kid)l from the get-go about the holiday's and their origins and that santa isn't real just because i didn't want to lie to her. 

 I understand what you're saying as much as I"m able but at this point I do not feel bad about any of this and it makes me feel sad to think that I am supposed to feel  bad about it?

 

I don't know.  I guess were all in different places in this journey. I must confess deep inside my heart I"m afraid to be or maybe afraid I never will be all the things that people here say we're supposed to be.  We all still live in this world and while I'd never want to be a part of anything bad in this world and I do not wish to displease God either.   

I just feel only happiness and love and goodness when I remember all of the holiday's of my childhood.  I only feel that same happiness now, until I come here and read something to the contrary. 

I love giving and making gifts and spending time with my family, I love the pretty decorations.  I told my daughter that the star on top of the christmas tree was to represent the star over bethlehem when christ was born, that the gifts we give one another represent the gifts that the  wise men gave to jesus. That's what my mother taught me.  Those things always felt good and happy.  Are those things supposed to be wrong or just the special observance of days that used to be pagan that we try to convert into special rememberances of particular christain occasions?   Is it better to keep our family traditions and use them to love our family even more or to give them up and cause family strife? If we dont' want to give them up does that make us bad?
Personally I can truthfully say that I don't want to give them up.   I guess if it's wrong I pray that God will forgive me. 
Ever seen A Christmas Carol?  That's how I feel inside at christmas time.

I like to "Celebrate" with my family.  I am thankful for them, I am thankful Jesus, I am thankful that I can give a gift or bring a smile to someones face by giving them a gift or just sharing a good meal together.  I used to look with love upon a nativity scene...

Everything is just so complicated...........

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Michele,

I would not stress over this issue, continue to seek Him first in all things and this stuff will sort itself out. I don't think anyone here was advising that we should be so rigid as to ruin our families' holiday.

The point is that one day is no more "holy" than any other, every day should be in celebration of our Lord and Saviour.

Enjoy the fellowship with family and friends.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[gmik]

I agree with Joe Michele, don't stress.  We basically are all gonna do what we feel right about doing.  Don't celebrate, do celebrate.  Me, I don't have the total say in the matter since my husband loves Christmas, so we celebrate.  But as Joe says, we can celebrate HIM everyday. Whatever, the Lord loves us SO much that if HE is bothered by it HE will let us know.

Michele, I just wanted to tell you I named my daughter Leah Michele.  I just love the one "l".

gena

I just reread this thread from start to finish.  So many good thoughts.

[ned]

One thing about Christmas for me is because I thought it was to be a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus, I for so many years was expecting to feel something "spiritual" at Christmas. I always yearned for some supernatural feeling because I was "celebrating for the right reason".
No special aura, no spirituality, no supernatural feelings ever came. I actually cried one year because this was lacking.

I think this is the kind of rudiment of the world we are too avoid.

Following man's traditions leads you to think you are doing the right thing, when really you are so far from the truth it's unbelievable!

God knows our hearts. Christmas is another day, it's a gift. If anything, enjoy it for that reason alone.

Love,
Marie