Christmas

[Bill]

Hi Madeline,

Again how does one physically separate oneself from the world?

The physical world sometimes reflects the spiritual. If someone has a fancy car, goes to clubs and loves to dress in rich clothing—this physical reflects whats in the inside of this person.

Love,
Madeline

OK, can you tell me then if someone physically celebrates christmas what does this reflect spiritually?  Is this an absolute?  Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?


God bless


Bill

[Deborah-Leigh]

Bill

You ask...."if someone physically celebrates christmas, is this an absolute? Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?

Relatively speaking, I think that if someone celebrates christmas it may not necessarily be spiritually celebrated for that person. I think is is absolutely possible to spiritually celebrate christmas evey day but not necessarily only on one day of every year!.... yes Bill. Absolutely speaking I think absolutely not

Arcturus...

[gedeon]

 I have just read some of your responses to Christmas.  I was feeling a little bad for my children this morning because we have decided to come out of this holiday again.  I say again,  because for years we did not celebrate Christmas and then our church decided that maybe there is nothing wrong with celebrating this day sjo for a few years we also celebrated it in a secular way just physically.  I would buy gifts for my children each year, and they loved it .  This year we decided to come out of it all together again and I was encouraged by the  posts here regarding the day. Kat your response is well researched. 

[Kat]

Hi gedeon,

I hope your children will come to appreciate your devotion to your beliefs, maybe in time they will.
I've been wondering how I was going to feel about today myself,
because I have decided to come out of this holiday again too.
I was in Worldwide Church of God for many years and did not abserve xmas then, when my children were young. 
But when I left that church and went to a Baptist I eventually went totally back to xmas, and was going along with it all for 10 yrs., untill this year. 
My girls are about grown now, so I didn't interfere we whatever they wanted to do.  So I have been kind of the odd man out around here, while they keep on going with it all. 
But it has not been that bad, they respect what I have decided, and I understand their wanting to continue with it. 
So we can take comfort in the knowledge that many of us are dealing with difficulties in this 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Beloved]

I am taking a break from house cleaning (throwing out all outdated stuff (flour beans cans etc).  All year I have been giving away a lot of things as an attempt to simplify my daily living and eliminate the clutter and distractions in my life so I can devote more time to my study of the Word.

I usually do not get into these discussions about Christmas but this year I have I am really more aware of futility of these discussions. This Sunday I listened to Kennedy expound on the need for Christians to stand up and take back Christmas and then listened to a Town Meeting show with various Theologians who argued in the other direction. I laughed at some of the nonsense they each side posited to support their view. As usual I was very saddened by the scriptural quotes that came from their own mouths that they may hear them replayed again at the Great throne.

I think Christmas is and will be like a lot of things ...another learning lesson for people. Since God has revealed some of His Truth to us we too now look at things differently 

For the Christians they think they are 'keeping' the birth of Christ... when it is actually it is more likely the time of his conception.   Christ truly brought light into the world when it was physically the darkest.  John the Babptist was the first earthly witness, though in utero.  The prolifers will have egg on their face and the world church will too.

They think it righteous because they celebrate the birth, when the scriptures clearly show that only earthy kings had b-day parties and even then no good came out of them (ie salome's dance etc). They cannot and will not believe that Christ is most interested in death.... (death to self and carnal things)

(Joh 6:63 KJVR)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

They like all the glitter and decorations and gifts because they are carnal. It is not their fault that they are blind and deaf. Those of us who do not celebrate these things should not feel that they are doing a better thing because if it were not of God you would be right in the middle of all of the celebrating and covered in tinsle and drooling over all the gadgets and things. 

I like what Joe said about the 24 / 7 Sabbath rest in Christ,  we really need to stop acting like Peter and asking "what about that guy (John)?  Christ laid it out... Never mind him... you ...follow Me.

God put each of us into our unique worldly situation... like Paul we each need to focus on our own maturity and run the race. We are to enjoy our families and friends, we are "in" the world but we are no longer "of" the world. So let your light outshine those artificial ones and let you love overfloweth and overcome the sentimental gush.    

I for one have put all of my treasured and gorgeous Christmas stuff to good use and have given them to people who are still living in the world.  I have used up the last of my paper and ribbons and now will give gifts (all year) wrapped in whatever theme I decide .

Whenever I hear the Christmas songs movies etc  I reflect on the Truth, that is often missing from them and truly enjoy the parts where it is present. On the other side I did excused my self during my office Christmas party because it was a totally carnal event. 

When someone wishes me a Merry Christmas,  If they are non believers .....I retort with a big smile ...."May God shine His light on you this year" because I truly want them to know what He has shown me and know that I cannot do this but that He can and will   

If they are Christians who know me a little more...., I will say in response   "My soul doth magnifies My Lord and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior"  There are so many other such verses that I use simply as a witness.

I no longer want to debate about issues that the other side is oblivious to. The clueless do not understand the spiritual.

(Mat 7:6 KJVR) 
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Dogs cannot eat this spiritual meat and you really p'd off the pigs because they cannot eat this truth either and they will only get upset with you.... Right now.... they are unlike the woman of Canaan who came from Tyre and Sidon to ask Jesus to heal her daughter.....they would be highly offended with this quote or remark. Since they are only doing what is natural ..... you still gotta love these dogs and pigs .....because God loves them

Beloved  (that goes for us donkeys, bovines chickens etc)


   

[hebrewroots98]

Greetings everyone,

After reading all of the posts, I would like to share what I have persoanlly experienced at the expense of giving up these holidays. My husband and I gave up this 'christmas' about 10 years ago after learning from a book called "FOSSILIZED CUSTOMS" and a video called America's Occult Holidays (which we have both still and use it as a tool for those wanting to learn more about where America's Holidays have come from; and these are only available at certain places, not your traditional bookstores.)  We literally had a time with having withdrawl symptoms, but nothing we didn't get through.

However, our family members  thought that we had gone off of the deep end.  They just didn't get it at all, and  they still don't- even after attempts to explain it.  WE HAVE LITERALLY BEEN WRITTEN OFF BY SO MANY IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS OVER THIS ONE ISSUE (not participating in their hollidays anymore)THAT WE ARE HARDLY CONSIDERED 'FAMILY' ANYMORE. (We wonder if these holidays aren't idols of ones' heart perhaps?)    However, we wanted to OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN; (Jer.10 and Duet. 12.)  We had learned that not only were these American kept 'holidays' very pagan in origin but also that God said (in Duet 12) "do not say that I say that it is ok to celebrate like this b/c BABIES ARE DYING in the fires to molech (their pagan god.)".  Knowing of people in the occult whom have 'come out of her my people", and knowing what they did (AND STILL DO IN THE OCCULT WORLD TODAY, 2006) to innocent babies; just to please their 'god' (satan); there is NO WAY that we can participate and condone what is going on behind the scenes (illegally)in satanism TODAY.  TODAY MANY BABIES IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD HAVE BEEN SACRIFICED TO A FALSE god named satan!!!  IT has already happened TODAY AND LAST NIGHT in your city and you just didn't know it!!!   

[hebrewroots98]

Sorry everyone; the last half of my previous post got deleted somehow??

What I was saying was that "the traditions of men make void the word of God", and that all of the American (traditional) Holidays that are on the American calendar (also called the Gregorian calendar) (except for Thanksgiving) have been handed down to we Americans from pagan sources.   Each holiday comes from pagan sources whom have just 'christianized them to cover up their origional roots.  God didn't like these holidays then (b/c babies were dying for the false gods back then;) and He doesn't like our holidays today b/c innocent babies are still dying on every major American Holiday (in this country and in every city the USA as well as in every city around the world.)  My husband and I dread and grieve these holidays (Halloween;IshtarEaster; Christmas etc..) b/c we know what happens and we can't control it, thus we don't feel very celebratory in our consciences when we know what some satanists are doing to please their god satan.  Our 8 yr old son has known and understood these things now for a few years.  We tell him the truth and he accepts it for what it is. He has no desire to celebrate these holidays.

We do however, celbrate hanukkah (even tho we aren't Jewish), b/c Jesus celebrated this 'tradition' of the Miricle of Lights".  Our (Daniel Isaiah) absolutely loves this time; he gets presents and we have a positive alternative and experience for him.  Of course we make Yeshua (Jesus) the center of it all as being our Miricle of lights and how we are supposed to follow HIS example of bieng a light in a dark world.  We do celebrate Thankskgiving as well.  We also try and bless someone everyday with some good deed, not just on a holiday.  This is not the easy life (it is easier to just go with the flow), yet, we feel good about 'doing the right thing' here that we feel that God has shown to us.

I hope that I cleared up some issues with you and that I did not offend any of you, as that was not my intention here.  We are told to uphold the truth and this is how I see the truth in this matter.

MUCH LOVE IN HIM, 

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, this is Golden and beautifully spoken

You wrote:

Bill

You ask...."if someone physically celebrates christmas, is this an absolute? Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?

Relatively speaking, I think that if someone celebrates christmas it may not necessarily be spiritually celebrated for that person. I think is is absolutely possible to spiritually celebrate christmas evey day but not necessarily only on one day of every year!.... yes Bill. Absolutely speaking I think absolutely not  

Arcturus...

I agree with you 100%.  

There is a big difference between being "religiously" tied to Christmas and being spiritually free. For we are told to "Come out of her" (Scripture below) but what use is not going to church but still being spiritually strangled by its pagan beliefs. Coming out surely means being free from the stranglehold. This then provides a great opportunity to show love and share love with family and friends. I have found that at such times, many opportunities arise to share the truth. You are so right, we should spiritually celebrate the birth of Christ every single day.

Rev 18:4

• And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Much Love to you,
Darren

[Craig]

I think this Christmas thread, or thanksgiving or easter, or birthdays, or, or, or.............. is getting away from what we should be concerned about.

Romans 14 should be studied.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Now, if you don't want to celebrate a holiday or other festive occasion, then by all means don't.  If you wish to celebrate then by all means do.  It is between you and God, I for one won't tell you what you should do, I think the verse in Romans speaks volumes.  If I tell you I don't celebrate Christmas or any other holiday it may be a stumbling block to some brothers/sisters, if I tell you I do celebrate holidays it may be a stumbling block to others. 

If what we do outwardly is of our own strength of spirit rather than God working in us, what have we accomplished? 

The great thing about this forum is, I believe, that all here are seeking the same goals and prize, and I hope we are not viewed as judgemental, legalistic, etc. 
We must let Christ work through US, not...US... through Christ, because if we do that then we my as well spit in the wind.

Merry Christmas!

Craig

[rocky]

I think this Christmas thread, or thanksgiving or easter, or birthdays, or, or, or.............. is getting away from what we should be concerned about.

Romans 14 should be studied.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Now, if you don't want to celebrate a holiday or other festive occasion, then by all means don't.  If you wish to celebrate then by all means do.  It is between you and God, I for one won't tell you what you should do, I think the verse in Romans speaks volumes.  If I tell you I don't celebrate Christmas or any other holiday it may be a stumbling block to some brothers/sisters, if I tell you I do celebrate holidays it may be a stumbling block to others. 

If what we do outwardly is of our own strength of spirit rather than God working in us, what have we accomplished? 

The great thing about this forum is, I believe, that all here are seeking the same goals and prize, and I hope we are not viewed as judgemental, legalistic, etc. 
We must let Christ work through US, not...US... through Christ, because if we do that then we my as well spit in the wind.

Merry Christmas!

Craig

Thanks Craig.  your post enspired me to read the 14th chapter of Romans and i love the ending. 

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


and this one

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

[stego]

Hey all,
    Craig I thought that was a very good scripture you brought out.  I think it doesn't matter what physical thing we do or don't do as long as whatever we do is done in the spirit of love.  Love for God, and love for each other. 


Peace,
    Sean

[mari_et_pere]

It's sad that our country is so caught up in the nonsense of Christmas. That being said, God is in control. If His will has room for Christmas to be so shameless and disgusting, then so be it.

M@tt

[kennymac]

Hello,

The meaning of Christmas, today, is the birthdate of Jesus, regardless of it's origen, the average person believes this day to be the day that Christ was born. God has allowed this day to be a day when a large portion of humanity comes together to celebrate His being.

Please excuse my ignorance, in reading the posts it left me wondering about these things.  I was hoping that one of you would share with me your personal feelings. I am not talking about doctrine, history supports that Christmas has it's roots in paganism, but truly what is it that you are feeling on this day?? What do you do on Christmas, what are your thoughts??? Do you  feel that you are glorifying the Lord in some way or that by seperating youself there is some type of spiritual reward?? Do you feel that family that chooses to participate in traditional Christmas activities are benefiting from your decision not participate??  Do you feel society as a whole benefits in some type of way?? Is it just so repulsive for you to know the origen behind the day, the only way you can have peace is to seperate yourself??

My intent is not to offend, I would like to have a deeper understanding of what you are feeling and what motivates you to isolate yourself from friends and family on Christmas day? I know that this must be difficult for you so there must be many reasons for your choice that I have never thought about.

I have always viewed Christmas as a great day to share truth. The world is starving, there is a famine of the true word.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

God bless,

Kennymac

[hillsbororiver]

Hi kennymac, I will answer some of your questions to the best of my understanding all my reponses are in purple .

Hello,

The meaning of Christmas, today, is the birthdate of Jesus, regardless of it's origen, the average person believes this day to be the day that Christ was born. God has allowed this day to be a day when a large portion of humanity comes together to celebrate His being.

While I agree that "God has allowed" this day (Christmas) to be what it is, I don't believe that a very large portion of humanity meditates on the significance of the birth, life & death of our Lord, nor does much of humanity contemplate what His Spirit is accomplishing now.

What I do see is crass commercialism which merchandises away most of what many claim this day represents, greed, envy, resentment and many lusts are encouraged even as many charitable functions do works in helping the less fortunate among us, why is it more important to feed a hungry person on December 25 rather than June 19th? or August 11th?


Please excuse my ignorance, in reading the posts it left me wondering about these things.  I was hoping that one of you would share with me your personal feelings. I am not talking about doctrine, history supports that Christmas has it's roots in paganism, but truly what is it that you are feeling on this day??

My own personal feelings are that I enjoy seeing friends and family (as I do most days) but the pressure to follow traditions that often give people a sense of anxiety especially in regard to buying, decorating, giving, etc. can be overwhelming to those who feel they are not "measuring up" to some TV commercial that is propagating the ultimate retail bonanza.

My own feelings are that Thanksgiving is a more "spiritual" day for many since this day carries very little baggage or expectations other than gathering with family to share a meal together thankfully for all that has been provided for us and our families and friends. But again this is something that I do way more than one day a year, it is becoming a constant state of mind even if the gathering is not an every day occurance.      

What do you do on Christmas, what are your thoughts???

Is the food ready? What time does the game come on? 

Just kidding (sort of), I tend to go with the flow, if anyone wants to discuss the life and ministry of Jesus all the better.

Do you  feel that you are glorifying the Lord in some way or that by seperating youself there is some type of spiritual reward??

I personally do not seperate myself but I can understand those who do, the bigger question is what example do we set or how consistantly are we there for family, friends and neighbors the other 364 days a year? How often do we contemplate the significance of Jesus Christ in our life during Christmas or any other day?

Do you feel that family that chooses to participate in traditional Christmas activities are benefiting from your decision not participate??  Do you feel society as a whole benefits in some type of way?? Is it just so repulsive for you to know the origen behind the day, the only way you can have peace is to seperate yourself??

As I alluded to previously I feel that if we are consistant in how we live our lives day to day, a kind or encouraging word, a helping hand, a sympathetic ear and a willingness to share the source of our joy when presented with the opportunity (no matter the calander date) then we are definitely benefitting those who are in our circle of friends, neighbors and family.

My intent is not to offend, I would like to have a deeper understanding of what you are feeling and what motivates you to isolate yourself from friends and family on Christmas day? I know that this must be difficult for you so there must be many reasons for your choice that I have never thought about.

I hope this has helped in your understanding.

I have always viewed Christmas as a great day to share truth. The world is starving, there is a famine of the true word.

As there is the other 364 days (365 in leap year) 

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. (Only or especially on December 25? Or every day?)

God bless,

Kennymac

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi kennymac,

I realize that you are sincerely trying to understand why some choose not to participate in Christmas.
And I will try to explain my feelings about it. 
I know that most people do not understand the pagan origin of Christmas and don't care or want to know about it.  But I do know it and I do care about it. 
I am honestly trying to look at this from Christ's prospective, seriously what does He think about all this.
I do not feel that the things I would be doing at Christmas, would be serving Him spiritually.  Not that I'm trying to be superior to those who do observe Christmas, but because I believe it is worldly, and for me personally, that's what I am trying to get away from.
I am the only one in my family, immediate and extended, that does not participate in Christmas.
When I decided to stop participating, I gave a brief explaination of why, anybody that wanted to know more I explained more for them. 
Do I go around telling them what they are doing is wrong, no, I let them do what they desire and keep my peace. 
I do not seperate myself from them, but I didn't go Christmas shopping, I didn't help set up a tree, I didn't go caroling, I didn't go to any 'Christmas' parties, and I didn't exchange presents Christmas day.  I did prepare a meal that day, like I do most other days.  We all shared a nice day together, and I do not feel like my not participating in those particular things hindered them, so we all feel like things were ok this way.
So I hope you can better understand my feelings.  This is something I have decided, it is something that I do not want to go along with anymore, this is for me 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

These scriptures and thoughts came to my mind as I was reading this thread.

James 1 : 27 External religious worship, religion as it is expressed in outward acts that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this : to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

2 ;14. What is the use my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no good works to show for it. Can such faith save his soul?

For me the above scriptures warn against being a hypocrite for the sake of saving or preserving other peoples emotions or comfort zones in Babylonian practises....yet we need to have wisdom, understanding and compassion for those who are still blind. We need not join them either or unite with them but we can be separate and holy without being full of prideful condemnation and merciless superiority.

For me, we know about the origin of Christmas and Easter and in my family we recognise  that there is  no separation of State and Church on this one. Both State and Church we believe have united against God in their hatred for His Son to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Individually each of us will have our own way to negotiate our particular circumstances and deal with the relevant persons involved in our respective families.

We have declared ourselves to the family. We have made our stand and have not done so to coerce or condemn or change or put pressure on anyone. Only the Spirit of God can make the blind see but we also believe that we do not have to act as if we too are blind to make anyone feel accepted or approved. We will not exchange gifts on or because of being made merchandise of by the worldly systems of man made traditions.  This stand has been accepted because we have stated that giving should not be once a year but a way of life just like going to Church should not be once a week but should be continuously mindful of the presence of Christ within and not confined to a Church address. We are educating our son into this understanding that giving is all year not once a year and the carnality lust of the flesh and eyes is being weaned off of him through our new found liberty in the spirit of Christ.

2 cor 5 : 16 Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a purely human point of view in terms of natural standards of value. No even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now we have such knowledge of Him that we know Him no longer in terms of the flesh.......as the carnal world and the Babylonian system would have us follow and assist in keeping alive in the flesh what is resurrected in the Spirit that being Christ. Christmas and Easter is a direct resistance to the resurrection as we see it...but that we see it we are grateful that we are  set free to see and realise this corruption and darkness that mis-leads and makes merchandise of many who do not see or know. These worldly celebrations of the flesh are heinous crimes of ignorance pride idolatry and carnality. It is part of the plan that we are no longer party to for which we have only God to thank and Jesus to praise for setting us apart in |His awesome style and Sovereignty and timing.

This little story comes to mind.......

There was a poor Negro beggar who always occupied the bench in front on the pristine Church in the immaculate gardens of the Church. The Church goers always avoided to walk near him because he looked so poorly and they wanted to have nothing to do with him. One day a young princely man visited the Church....He saw the poor beggar and went straight up to him and took a seat right next to him.

"What are you doing here outside friend ? "came the soft poignantly tender voice from this stately princely man.

Without glancing up, the beggar sobbed..."I love Jesus and for years I have tried to get into that Church and they just won't let me in."

The Princely man took his arm around the beggar and consoled him saying,
"Don't cry. I am He who you seek and I too have been trying to get into that Church they too will not have me either.!....so I just visit occasionally. "

The beggar felt the compassion and understanding and love in the voice of the King of Kings and as he looked up to show his tear stained face....the Princely prince of peace had vanished to his sight leaving his peace, presence and love in the soul of this once poor beggar.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

To All,

  My heart is aching right now.  I hope and pray to the Lord that I am not stepping out of place.  This thread has seemed to darken the forum.  I believe that whether if one should celebrate a Holiday or not should be up to the individuals.

  I just feel so much tension in those that are participating in this thread.  I know that some of you have posted passionately about what you do and why.  But I believe based on what I have read that we have forgotten the most important thing.  We have forgotton our friends and our relationships with eachother.  This topic is creating some strife and dissension.  I know that this forum is to discuss our beliefs and questions and should be an open forum, but when it is going against this aim, then it creates tension and strife.

  Phillipians 4:8 - In conclusion, brothers, focus your thoughts on what is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovable, or admiarable, on some virture or on something praiseworthy.  I do not want to judge, I just simply wish to present the standard that should govern what we post and how we reply.  What we need to remember is this verse.   If you think that the posts would not edify or live up to this verse, then I would exhort you to post something that does live up to this verse.  It is possible to be able state your practices and beliefs in a way that is not offensive to others and represent your point of view. 

  I am asking that each of you pray before posting on this topic.  This topic is seeming to open a whole bad can of whoopi worms, which are 25 feet long and very poisonous to those affected.  I am almost to the point of not even reading new topics on this particular thread, beucase I do not feel encouraged but I feel lowered in my spirits and things of that nature.

  I know and love all of you and am exhorting you to please let not let Christmas or anything divide us into camps.  What we need to realize we are all one on this journey no matter how walk or what path we take.  We need to see beyond the differences and show respect for eachother no matter what we believe in.  I am asking that careful thought and prayer go into each post. 

  This is perhaps my most negative posts uptodate, becuase I do not like to focus on the negative.  We need to look beyond and see eachother as God sees us.  As perfect children of God.  And when we can accept this point of view for eachother, then and only then, can we truly be one.  How can we get here, by not focusing on the negative and by looking beyond ourselves.

  Thanks for listening.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Gena,

Well thanks for the confidence,
I think I just have the time to do the hunting.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

CHRISTMAS:

Most religious festivals of the world have something to do with sex or fertility. The Christian Holy Days are no different. They ARE in fact, little more than these same pagan festivals with Christian orientations. Christmas, for example IS the pagan Roman Saturnalia or sometimes called "The Festival of Lights." But even the Saturnalia predates the founding of Rome by centuries. This same festival can be traced to Babylon, and yes, you guessed it, to Egypt and their winter celebration of lights.

December 25 is near the winter solstice. It is the time when the sun after having been at the lowest point in the heavens, beings to rise over the world with renewed vigor and power. It was the time of heathen festivities in worship of the sun. The vernal equinox is the point where the sun crosses the celestial equator, about March 20, making day and night of equal length everywhere. This was the time of pagan spring festivals.

The day of December 25 acquired a new significance under the rule of Emperor Aurelian. He proclaimed this day as "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis," or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. This was because of a strange Eastern religion, Mithraism, whose god Mithras was identified with the Unconquered Sun. During the Saturnalia work of every kind ceased. Schools were closed.

The Roman Saturnalia was boisterous. But whatever the behavior of some Romans, others were simply merry. They ate big dinners, visited their friends, etc. The halls of the Romans were decked with boughs of laurel and of green trees, with lighted candles and with lamps--for the hovering spirits of darkness were afraid of light. Bonfires were lit in high places to strengthen the reviving sun in his course. Candles and green wreaths were given as presents, the streets were crowded with noisy processions of men and women carrying lighted tapers, and public places were decked with flowers and shrubs. The practice of giving and receiving presents was almost as common then as it is now at Christmas. Our present day "Christmas spirit" is actually the spirit of this old Roman festival.
All of this pagan nonsense found in the Christian Church came out of Rome and Greece and Egypt. The worship of sex and fertility pictured by symbols of sex and reproduction and fertility was a major part of pagan religion, and Egypt was the origin of many of these pagan practices. Did God reveal His truth to the Egyptians and expect Moses to learn the truths of God from the Egyptians? Moses learned all the pagan customs of Egypt, but he did not pass so much as one of them onto Israel. All that Moses taught Israel CAME FROM GOD.

SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
What does God think of the religion and wisdom and customs of Egypt?
It means that virtually everything about Christendom—from its name 'Church,' to the architecture of their buildings, to the origin of their holy days and doctrines, is all straight out of heathenism,
of which God Almighty declares:
"LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN... inquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Jer. 10:2 & Deut. 12:30).

All Christian doctrines that are not out of paganism are nonetheless, unscriptural.
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Hope this will help you Iris.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Since many folks do not read through an entire thread to familiarize themselves with all that was written (highly recommended) I am quoting Kat's early response which included a portion of an article dedicated to this subject and a link to the entire paper.

This is a matter between every individual and our Lord, ultimately there are no "winners" in a debate such as this, we should act in accordance to the wisdom and understanding He has granted us rather than temporal traditions of men, it is all of the heart. Not to glory in ourselves but to glorify Him.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe