23 minutes in hell

[eggi]

Hello all, this is my first post here. 

It is indeed sad to hear people like Bill Wise. He is as deceived as you can get. After listening to http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWise_AllTracks.mp3 I was feeling so sad for him and others who believe in this blasphemy. His imagination must really have run wild, his descriptions are absolutely insane! This vision he had is now an idol of his heart, it seems that everything he reads in the Bible is referring to what he claims he saw in hell. All of it is damnable heresy.

In the beginning he tries to make his story believable by saying that Paul was in the third heaven (out of the body) and so it is quite possible that HE had a vision of hell (out of the body). Wise claims he was in hell "OUT OF HIS BODY". I've been thinking about these verses that Wise referres to:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell;, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:, God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven. (2Co 12:2)

What is Paul referring to here? "(Whether IN the body, I cannot tell;, or whether OUT of the body, I cannot tell:, God knoweth;)"
Since I'm not sure about what this implies, I decided to look at some of the "in the body" occurences in the Bible:

I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. (Dan 7:15)

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:10)

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:6)

From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. (Gal 6:17)

Is Paul talking about an "out of the body" experience like Bill Wise is suggesting?
I think not. Paul says he DOESN'T KNOW. He couldn't tell. God knows. It seems that this expression "in the body" has something to do with the intimacy of the vision. Paul had such a wonderful vision that he did not even understand just how strong a vision he had had; He didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body. Daniel was grieved in his spirit in the MIDST of his body, and he was troubled by these visions. I'm beginning to see a connection with "in the body" and the strength or extent of visions. If we are bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus (which would be "dying daily") the life also of Jesus will be made manifest "in our body".

Whilst we are AT HOME "in the body" we are absent from the Lord; we don't see the fulness, and we know in part (1Co 13:9). And finally, when Paul is bearing in his body the marks of the Lord Jesus (as opposed to the mark of the beast), he is spiritually closer to Jesus than he has ever been (let no man trouble me). All of this is "in the body", but it seems to me that there are different levels of being "in the body" as we develop and grow spiritually. Am I way off base here? Any views on this?

Praying for understanding,
Eirik

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Eirik

I Just know you are led here and you are going to find so many teasures...."revealed unto us by His Spirit...." 1 Cor 2:10

It sounds to me that you are one of the Called Out ones...called out of Mystery Babylon...the Harlot.....You already see the deception and that is great that you identify it.

At first I had some difficulty with seeing SO much deception until I was delivered to understand and appreciate that at least I could SEE it.....it really got me upset and so much so that I shunned the TV news and could not watch world events without becoming troubled.  I could not release myself out of this experience and many years of anxiety had to be felt in all the darkness I was grieving over..before it dawned on me that the darkness is part of Gods plan. 

The more I read Rays Lake of Fire Series the more sence I am lead to understand and the teaching and insights  nurtures a sound mind and not one given over to fear... I am so  glad that I see what I see now and that I can rest in the revelation that all others will also be delivered from evil in God's due time....and God's due Will

I enjoyed reading your post...Welcome

Arcturus

[eggi]

Thank you so much!

I'm also very grateful for what little I see and understand of God's Word. I too was in Bill Wise's situation, I had nightmares about Judgement day, being condemned to eternal hell and all the rest of it. Still, I never had such a detailed and horrible experience/dream/vision as that of Bill Wise. Seeing how terrible deception he is passing through made me feel very sorry for him. There really is no end to the horrors of hell that he is now preaching: "Demons ripped off all my skin... they had the strength of 1000 men... there is not one drop of water in hell..." and so on. Thanks to God I'm not fearful when hearing such descriptions anymore, the biggest fear is that I could once again fall for such deception, because I know that I'm not responsible for my faith - I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (Mar 9:24)

[orion77]

Hello Eirik,

That is a very good question.  Often wondered about that myself and haven't a clue what it means, except that as Paul said, 'only God knows'.  Also, as he stated there are things that happen between God and man that are not lawful for one to speak about.

(2Co 12:3 LITV)  And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows--

(2Co 12:4 LITV)  that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words which a man is not permitted to speak.


I think when one has a 'third heaven' experience, it is not so much that they don't want to talk about it, but there is literally no words or expression that can properly convey the experience.  Beyond the thoughts and imagination of mans limited capabilities.  Even though it has happened...how to express it to another human is impossible.  The love is comparable to the size of the universe, our mind can not comprehend it.

Just a thought, maybe that is what Paul is talking about.

God bless,

Gary

[Kat]

Hi Eirik,

This post is of interest to me, as I have been considering this scripture lately.
I have read some of the commentaries remarks about this,
and have come to some of my own conclusions.

2Co 12:1  I must boast, although it does not do any good. I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2Co 12:2  I know a man in Christ. Fourteen years ago-whether in his body or outside of his body, I do not know, but God knows-that man was snatched away to the third heaven.

I believe Paul is talking about himself, as later in verses 6 and 7 he is referring to himself.
I believe these must be visions, as Paul had a vision or trance before, in Acts 22:17.

2Co 12:3  I know that this man-whether in his body or outside of his body, I do not know, but God knows-

He has mentioned twice that he didn't know what happened to him.
Repetition being made to affirm the magnitude of what happened to him,
and this experience was of greater significance to him,
as he was not himself, and he knew not where he was.

2Co 12:4  was snatched away to Paradise and heard things that cannot be expressed in words, things that no human being has a right even to mention.

Is this Paradise, the experience of Christ giving him a vision of heaven.
This whole thing was not easy to be understood and taken in, and the manner of it even unknown to him. 
These experiences Paul had, surely attributed greatly to his understanding of the truth,
as he was the most influential apostle and authored 14 books of the Bible.

2Co 12:5  I will boast about this man, but as for myself I will boast only about my weaknesses.
2Co 12:6  However, if I did want to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be telling the truth. But I am not going to do it in order to keep anyone from thinking more of me than what he sees and hears about me.

This kind of knowledge and revelations could cause spiritual pride.
Therefore this was prevented in him, as he says,
there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to torment me.

2Co 12:7  To keep me from becoming conceited because of the exceptional nature of these revelations, a thorn was given to me and placed in my body. It was Satan's messenger to keep on tormenting me so that I would not become conceited.

Well this is my own understanding,
but maybe others can bring more understanding of this scripture.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Eggi

I hear where you are coming from....The doctrine of backsliding is terrifying...like the pagan teaching on eternal Hell which is Heresy.

I found these scriptures that I hope will encourage and comfort you..

1 John 2 : 27...But as for you, the anointing, the sacred appointment, the unction which you received from Him abides PERMANENTLY in you....

Heb 6 : 19  Now we have this hope as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, it cannot slip and it cannot break down under whoever steps out upon it - a hope that reaches farther and enters into the very certainty of the Presence within the veil. 20 Where Jesus has entered in for us in advance....

Heb 6 : 11...show the same diligence and sincerity in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of your hope until the end...

  Paul was persuaded beyond doubt and was sure that Rom 8 :38...neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor thing impending and threatening nor things to come, nor poweres, 39 Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able toseparate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

and in Gal 2 : 20 Paul tell us by what faith he lives by....."I live by the faith OF the Son of God...." and we all know the faith of the Son of God was prooved  faithful unto death.....we are still being trained tried and tested!.....

Arcturus ...in training

[eggi]

Thanks again for your encouragement, Arcturus!
I am confident in this:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phi 1:6)

Nevertheless I have to be increasing in knowledge:

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God. (Col 1:10)

We both have to trust in God, God is working, not us, but also we have to be vigilant. I think these three verses by Peter say a lot, and they are pretty closely tied to each other:

Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (1Pe 5:6-8)

I see that just about everyone agrees that "in the body/out of the body" refers to the magnitude of the vision, but what do you think about Bill Wise's experience. Was he really in hell, or did "an evil spirit from the Lord come and trouble him"?

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:14)

I'm thinking that Wise's experience was a totally pagan incident, much like the trances of shamans who "go to other spiritual dimensions". I have a hard time thinking that Paul is referring to an epileptic "shaking on the floor and screaming" experience. Any thoughts?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Eggi

Great post!


....You ask me "Was he (Bill) really in hell, or did "an evil spirit from the Lord come and trouble him"?

What I can share I have learnt here at Bible Truths so all credit and thanks to God through RAY.....

As far as I know...there is NO Pagan Hell....but there is a Lake of Fire that is not eternal....You will find this revelation in the extraordinary Lake of Fire Series that Ray has been guided  by Gods love and grace to reveal to us...

Now as for Bill....I accept that Bill experienced what he experienced but that is the END OF IT.  I do NOT accept BILL's  interpretation or his understanding of HIS OWN experience and neither do I agree that he should be building his house upon his understanding or on his experience, interpretation of his experience or understanding of it because there is NO Scripture to back up what he is preaching....I think he is  building his house on sand!....

Those who are doing the opposite are as described:

Eph 2:20 You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone

1 Tim 6:19 In this way laying up for themselves the riches that endure forever as a good foundation for the future, so that they may grasp that which is life indeed.

2 Tim 2:19  But the firm foundation of God stands, sure and unshaken, bearing this seal; The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names himself by the name of the Lord, give up all iniquity and stand aloof from it....

Matt 12 : 34...Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks...

So for me personally Eggi....if they are preaching Hell then they are full of it!..... I stand separate......not of my own works, understanding, intelligence or wisdom... but by Gods grace mercy and unmeritted favor! HE has edified me...least I should boast!

So I do not for a minute deny that we can have VISIONS of Hell like torture chambers but just because we can have visions, it does not mean these images are NOT visions or that they are real live places where sinners are destined to end up  because of a hateful God that the Church of Mystery Babylon will not give up teaching!.....

Matt 17: 3,9...And behold there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him....9 And as they came down from the mountain Jesus charged them saying, Tell the VISION, to no man....

This point is covered by Ray through his LOF Series. In Rays Lazarus and the Rich Man, Ray points out that Jesus said in John 3:13 NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven....

I enjoy Col 2:18...Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship ofangels, taking his sand on VISIONS....(on WHAT?...VISIONS)...he claims he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit."


It is amaizing that this subject has been posted. Just last week I was invited to go and hear out a person who had been in a coma for 40 days and was teaching and preaching about the so called reality of Hell.. He had given up his job to promote his book on the subject!....I gave that meeting a miss .....Next time I may attend and that sure will open the gates of persecution!.....I am getting ready and not looking for persecution... but I know it will come sooner or later....For now I am studying, studying, studying by Gods grace!...and in HIS TIME! I am not looking to test MY SKILLS or proove MYSELF... MAY GOD FORBID!...God's Spirit alone tests the reigns of my heart....

Hope this has blessed you.....

Arcturus  .... in training

[eggi]

Again thanks for your reply!

I asked the question in a provocative way, I too do not believe in the existence of hell (although I did), it was all burned out of me as I read the entire Lake of Fire series. The moment when I finally realised that the god that I knew was no more, was really an "in the body/out of the body" experience. I felt God's Love like no time before. It was really beyond comprehension!

I agree with you, I believe Wise to have had this experience, but I do NOT believe him when he says that he was "out of his body" IN HELL. "The Lord took me to hell", he says. All of the different insanse descriptions are either part of his imagination or a mental disease (really a demon). Either way it's a demon and evil spirit! Like you said: "if they are preaching Hell then they are full of it".

As to confronting and exposing those who contradict, I'm trying to be humble about this. I trust that God is telling me when to witness against someone, and when not to do it. It's important like you say to study and be patient, and "go into Arabia" and "spend three years in Damascus":

But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace,
to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:
neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. (Gal 1:15-18 ASV)

God be with you as you study!
Eirik

[buddyjc]

Hi Eirik,

Ray actually comments on this passage concerning Paul in the 'third heaven.'  Here is the link.

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html

His comments begin under the heading 'Transcendence vs. Inordinately.'

Brian

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi eggi

I did not find your question provocative in any way at all! I found it delightful!

I like your comment on confronting and exposing those who contradict......Not only is is wise to spend three years in Damascus...it sets the persecution three years away ....

His peace to you
Arcturus 

[eggi]

I actually read "Spilinter in the flesh" a while back. I guess I was too focused on understanding the splinter, so I didn't see the transcendent vision! If I understand things right, then "whether in the body or out of the body" is an expression to show the magnitude of the vision, and it's NOT talking about "being out of the body" as such (as those out of the body experiences we hear about from time to time). I certainly don't believe that Paul was "flying around with the Lord", as Bill Wise was, and that he saw his body "from the outside". Paul's experience was a true spiritual experience. I believe that "flying around with the Lord, seeing California from above" is a carnal experience, am I right? I don't think Bill Wise's comparison of his experience and Paul's experience is legitimate for this reason:

Paul had a vision of such magnitude that he didn't know whether he was in the body or not, but this doesn't mean that he saw his body from the outside, because then he would know, right? Therefore we can conclude that Paul's experience and Wise's experience are not comparable, since Wise says he saw his body left on the floor.

Please give your comments on what you think about this conclusion.

PS. Come to think of it, the fact that Paul often, if not all the time, uses figurative language, has lead to many false doctrines, such as "secret tongues of angels". Paul of course knew what he was talking about, he just used the same words as did other scriptures, knowing that they don't mean what they say, they mean what they mean.

[eggi]

Arcturus,

Funny remark! 
Yes, you can say that the persecution is yet future:
Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: (Mat 23:34 ASV)

Or you could say that you ARE being persecuted:
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. (Gal 4:29 ASV)

And so we must:
Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not. (Rom 12:14 ASV)

It really is amazing for how little things people can persecute someone (like healing someone on a certain day of the week. Talk about being grumpy!):
And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. (Joh 5:16 ASV)

It is unpleasant and sometimes painful, but it is a sign that at least you are doing something right!
Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. (Joh 15:20 ASV)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Eggi

Thank you for the encouragement....I was being provocative when I wrote...three years to persecution. Who am I TO SAY? I do yet only see in a glass dimly!.... and I am grateful for your insightful balanced responce.. Thank you

Here to answer your invite for thoughts....re Splinter in the flesh...(the buffeting evil spirit sent to Paul)

As I see this and am grateful to add....Rev 16:14  For really they are the spirits of demons that perform signs wonders, miracles....

Col 2 : 8  See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit, idle fancies and plain nonsense, following human tradition, men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world, just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding the teachings of Christ the Messiah...

Paul warns us   2 Tim 4 : 3  For the time is coming (I would dare to add ... is indeed here now!)...when people will not tolerate or endure sound and wholesome instruction, but having ears itching for something pleasing and gratifying, they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number ( TBN...One teacher after another to a considerable number!)...chose to satisfy their own likeing and to foster the errors they hold. 4 And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myhths and man-made fictions. 5 As for you, be calm and cool and steady, accept and suffer unflinchingly every hardship, do the work of an evangeleist fully perform all the duties of your ministry...(Expose those who contradict....!)

Jer 17 : 5...Thus says the Lord; Cursed with great evil is the strong man who trusts in and relies on frail man, making weak human flesh his arm and whose mind and heart turn aside from the Lord....

Arcturus  ...in training

[Kat]

Hi Eggi,

I see you are still wondering about, the spirit leaving the body thing.
Maybe this scripture will solve it for you.

James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This thread has made a lot of reall y good points.
I like the one that Arcturus said,
those that preach hell are full of it 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[eggi]

Thanks Arcturus and Kat!

I'm sure that Wise is a hoax all together, I was just interested in exposing the truth about it for edification. In this both of you were very helpful! I was edified by the verses you gave me, thanks a lot!

God bless you and keep you,
Eirik

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thanks Eggi

I also enjoyed that  Kat was  CAUSED to present...James 2:6...That sumed it all up for me.

Your posts have spoken to me....

His peace to you

Arcturus