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23 minutes in hell
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi eggi
I did not find your question provocative in any way at all! I found it delightful!
I like your comment on confronting and exposing those who contradict......Not only is is wise to spend three years in Damascus...it sets the persecution three years away :D....
His peace to you
Arcturus :)
eggi:
I actually read "Spilinter in the flesh" a while back. I guess I was too focused on understanding the splinter, so I didn't see the transcendent vision! If I understand things right, then "whether in the body or out of the body" is an expression to show the magnitude of the vision, and it's NOT talking about "being out of the body" as such (as those out of the body experiences we hear about from time to time). I certainly don't believe that Paul was "flying around with the Lord", as Bill Wise was, and that he saw his body "from the outside". Paul's experience was a true spiritual experience. I believe that "flying around with the Lord, seeing California from above" is a carnal experience, am I right? I don't think Bill Wise's comparison of his experience and Paul's experience is legitimate for this reason:
Paul had a vision of such magnitude that he didn't know whether he was in the body or not, but this doesn't mean that he saw his body from the outside, because then he would know, right? Therefore we can conclude that Paul's experience and Wise's experience are not comparable, since Wise says he saw his body left on the floor.
Please give your comments on what you think about this conclusion.
PS. Come to think of it, the fact that Paul often, if not all the time, uses figurative language, has lead to many false doctrines, such as "secret tongues of angels". Paul of course knew what he was talking about, he just used the same words as did other scriptures, knowing that they don't mean what they say, they mean what they mean.
eggi:
Arcturus,
Funny remark! :D
Yes, you can say that the persecution is yet future:
Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: (Mat 23:34 ASV)
Or you could say that you ARE being persecuted:
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. (Gal 4:29 ASV)
And so we must:
Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not. (Rom 12:14 ASV)
It really is amazing for how little things people can persecute someone (like healing someone on a certain day of the week. Talk about being grumpy!):
And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. (Joh 5:16 ASV)
It is unpleasant and sometimes painful, but it is a sign that at least you are doing something right!
Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. (Joh 15:20 ASV)
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Eggi
Thank you for the encouragement....I was being provocative :D when I wrote...three years to persecution. Who am I TO SAY? I do yet only see in a glass dimly!.... :D and I am grateful for your insightful balanced responce.. Thank you
Here to answer your invite for thoughts....re Splinter in the flesh...(the buffeting evil spirit sent to Paul) >:(
As I see this and am grateful to add....Rev 16:14 For really they are the spirits of demons that perform signs wonders, miracles....
Col 2 : 8 See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit, idle fancies and plain nonsense, following human tradition, men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world, just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding the teachings of Christ the Messiah...
Paul warns us 2 Tim 4 : 3 For the time is coming (I would dare to add ... is indeed here now!)...when people will not tolerate or endure sound and wholesome instruction, but having ears itching for something pleasing and gratifying, they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number ( TBN...One teacher after another to a considerable number!)...chose to satisfy their own likeing and to foster the errors they hold. 4 And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myhths and man-made fictions. 5 As for you, be calm and cool and steady, accept and suffer unflinchingly every hardship, do the work of an evangeleist fully perform all the duties of your ministry...(Expose those who contradict....!)
Jer 17 : 5...Thus says the Lord; Cursed with great evil is the strong man who trusts in and relies on frail man, making weak human flesh his arm and whose mind and heart turn aside from the Lord....
Arcturus :)...in training
Kat:
Hi Eggi,
I see you are still wondering about, the spirit leaving the body thing.
Maybe this scripture will solve it for you.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This thread has made a lot of reall y good points.
I like the one that Arcturus said,
those that preach hell are full of it :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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