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Author Topic: Question From Jennie  (Read 16169 times)

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Craig

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Question From Jennie
« on: March 29, 2006, 09:44:59 AM »

Jennie posted this to me privately, but I thought the group would be nice and answer her.

Craig

I decided to ask my question in a private message instead of the general area. I don't want to be guilty of causing anyone a problem. Here is my confusion: As you know when I first came here I shared my story and told the board that I do attend church and am married to a minister.

I read a lot about Babylon and wolves in sheep clothing.

I am sure you know, based on what I have written, that our church is not the typical denominational church. We have pretty much been ostracized by other Christians and churches in our area because we just don't fit in. Our thing is more to do our best to follow Jesus and reach out to those in need that cross our path. We arn't about money and all of us are probably in or near the national poverty level.  I say that not as a complaint because we have what we need so we use what we have above that to anyone who needs it.

I guess I get confused when I read things against the church I automatically think it is talking about our little group. Maybe what is meant is more about the mega-church, mega-money organizations.

Can you help me understand? Thank you so much for your time.

Jennie
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zander

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2006, 10:39:44 AM »

Its never so much about the people Jennie, its more about what people beleive.  If their belief is one of extortion, deceit and false doctrines (even if they arent aware of it being false) then this is not good and the church is to blame.  That is the world of Christendom

Church is a representative of "Christendom", not individual churches necessarily, but Christendom as a whole.  Church a physical symbol and is used generically.

All (or most) who write on this forum have read and studied church history, hebrew and greek scriptures.

What we have studied and beleive is 95% different to what the church (Christendom) beleives, as a whole, and thats because the Church (Christendom) holds many doctrines that are not in scripture or are of pagan origin.  These doctrines are held together by something called tradition and traditions of men is not what beleiving in God is about, we beleive.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2006, 12:42:35 PM »

Hello Jennie,

Some people are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom just as some people think every arab they see is a terrorist. I don't know what the statistics are but I would guess  that only a small percentage believe the concepts shared in BT

My understanding of the specific major differences can catagorized for the most part by the following areas:

Belief in an eternal punishment
Belief in universal salvation
Free will
Trinity

I hope I got that right. This is my opinion and it is not my intention to speak for Ray or Mike .

There seems to be a bit of paranoia about wolves so I hope that I have not said anything that would be constued as such.

I hope that helps.


feat

Edited first sentence to remove reference to forum members.
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Sorin

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2006, 02:17:20 PM »

Quote from: harryfeat
We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom




You should get banned for that!!

No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " ,  doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 05:12:32 PM »

Quote from: Sorin
Quote from: harryfeat
We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom




You should get banned for that!!

No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " ,  doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.


Seems like you just might have made one.  Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?

As I stated in my post it is my opinion.  If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.
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shibboleth

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Question From Jennie
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2006, 05:45:49 PM »

The reason we are concerned about wolves in sheeps clothing, Harryfeat, is because Jesus warned us about them.
Mt.7:15-16 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
What are these fruits other than false doctrine? It isn't talking about doing good works. Those are ehlpful to people. But what comes out of a man is what defiles him.
My understanding of Christiandom is not hasty generalization. I have studied the doctrines of all major denominations and they all have basically the same beliefs. I will list them below.
1. Church is a meeting, a building, or a place you go to.
2. God is sending the majority of humanity to hellfire.
3. God is triune.
4.You have to make a decision for Christ in order to be a Christian.
5. Man has a free will and can choose any event in this life.
Harryfeat, I don't care about your opinion, I care about truth. Your opinion may be true, but you shouldn't believe it unless you can rightly contend for the faith, and prove what you believe.
You are welcome here if you don't become antagonistic and try to bully people with your thoughts.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 06:00:40 PM »

Quote from: bobbys43
I agree Sorin!!!!
 I reread that post by Feat and that first part slipped right by me!
Hasty Generalization of Christiandom???????
 That is totally correct in what you stated Sorin!!All the christians I know believe these things and that is why they are still in the church!!! My younger brother and one of his christian croneys said nothing good about the bible truths and I am by now sure they consider me a heritic!
 Harryfeat I would like to know what you ment by that statement! I am sure most here at the forum would like to know what you ment by that statement!! You compared that statement to arabs and that all think they are terrorists!!! If they are muslum, they are an enemy of God and that is not a hasty Generalization my friend!!! Also mainstream christians that believe in eternal hell torment,freewill which is against God's will,Tithing as a command by God,condone war, believe that you must come to Christ instead of Him goming to you!!! I for one do not call that a Hasty Generalization Of Christiondom I call it THE FACTS!!!!!!
PLEASE ANSWER THAT HARRYFEAT!!!!!

bobby


Hi bobby

I will state again that in my opinion, characterizing ALL of christendom is a generalization.  The reference to arabs was just an example of profiling that we sometime do to unfairly lump people in different categories. [btw Catholics are not required to tithe and I would include them in christiandom]

If you want to limit yourself to  MAINSTREAM christiandom then  perhaps you are correct that all or nearly all would believe in  hell.  If you want to include ALL of christiandom then you have to consider that there are those who believe in universal salvation as well.  Admittedly this percent is small as I previously stated, but it is a generalization to state that all believe in hell.  I don't think that it is factual to make a blanket statement like that.  I am a christian and part of christiandom and I do not believe in eternal torment. Also, there are other christians who believe in annihilation rather than eternal torment of hell.  

I find that lumping people and using all inclusive terms does a disservice to those who do not follow mainstream or majority.

So yes, I disagree that ALL of christendom believes in hell's eternal torment and in my opinion,  to say so is not factual.

If you think I am  off base, why would your first comment be to threaten  me with banning instead of just asking my why my opinion differs from yours.  It not like I said anything sacrilegious or heretical.

Am I to be banned because my opinion differs from you and Sorin.

You guys are really strict.

I hope this answers your question.  If not I would be happy to answer any addition concerns you have.

feat
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jennie

  • Guest
confused
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2006, 06:14:01 PM »

Hey ya'll, Thanks so much for answering and I do understand a bit better now. Please don't let my question and confusion cause animosity among you. That is mainly why I did a private message so as to not start any feelings of ill will amongst the group. I promise it's okay. God knows our hearts and His plans for our lives both now and in the future. Thank you all again.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2006, 06:21:50 PM »

Quote from: shibboleth
The reason we are concerned about wolves in sheeps clothing, Harryfeat, is because Jesus warned us about them.
Mt.7:15-16 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
What are these fruits other than false doctrine? It isn't talking about doing good works. Those are ehlpful to people. But what comes out of a man is what defiles him.
My understanding of Christiandom is not hasty generalization. I have studied the doctrines of all major denominations and they all have basically the same beliefs. I will list them below.
1. Church is a meeting, a building, or a place you go to.
2. God is sending the majority of humanity to hellfire.
3. God is triune.
4.You have to make a decision for Christ in order to be a Christian.
5. Man has a free will and can choose any event in this life.
Harryfeat, I don't care about your opinion, I care about truth. Your opinion may be true, but you shouldn't believe it unless you can rightly contend for the faith, and prove what you believe.
You are welcome here if you don't become antagonistic and try to bully people with your thoughts.


Hi shibboleth,

I apologize if you thought I was trying to bully anyone with my opinion.  After all that's all it is, my own opinion.

I understand the concept of wolves and maintain a healthy skepticism of all that I am told.  

Your understanding of christendom and my own are obviously different because I do not limit christendom to only the major denominations.  I completely agree with you about the major denominations.  They do not comprise all of christendom however.  

Maybe I am being a bit anal retentive here but I still believe that it is a hasty generalization to lump everybody into the same belief catagory.  

I don't have a handle on the statistics, but I realize too that there is only a small percentage of christians who do not follow the same precepts as the major organizations do.  Is it factual to include them when you make general comments about christendom?

I am sorry if anyone felt I was trying to bully them into accepting my opinion. Thanks for welcoming me to stay.

I am overwhelmed by the unexpected ferocity of response.

feat
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Sorin

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 06:29:06 PM »

Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Sorin
Quote from: harryfeat
We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom




You should get banned for that!!

No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " ,  doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.


Seems like you just might have made one.  Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?

As I stated in my post it is my opinion.  If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.




Okay, so you are a universalist, and don't believe in hell, that's fine. do you believe we have free will? and notice I also said, " one that believes Scripture , not doctrine of men".

You shouldn't be banned for stating your opinion, as you say. but what you said about us " being hasty to gerneralize " was a direct attack.


Here are the forum rules, in case you forgot to read them.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray or Mike. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray or Mike. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.

No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.

Thank you for your cooperation.



I don't think saying things like " we on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization " is being RESPECTFUL.

PS. universalists understand that all will eventually be saved, but they don't understand the process.
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ertsky

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2006, 06:45:36 PM »

yes i think the next wolf that comes on the bt board may be in danger of death by lamb attack :)

sorry to joke on such a serious matter, i've been trying to find the balance between defending sound doctrine and being too intense, i have a personal trait of going right over the top on occasions. i'm trusting God to refine that right out of me.

as always the spirit and the body of Christ can help me in seeking to get it right as it were.

but after recent events i can see why so many are being vigilant, i'm sure in time we will all (especially me) find the maturity that God desires to bring us to in Christ.

f

don't get me wrong though i've got my eyes peeled
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Kevin

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2006, 08:14:50 PM »

Well put Bobby. Icame out of a non denominational church myself. Let me add it was very small. Yet they still had the basic same doctrinal teachings of man like every church that I been to. I no longer buy, sell, or trade there.
Kevin
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Sorin

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2006, 08:16:23 PM »

Well put Bobby indeed. I agree.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2006, 08:27:18 PM »

Quote from: Sorin
Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Sorin
Quote from: harryfeat
We on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization of all of Christendom




You should get banned for that!!

No on on this forum is making a " generalization " of Christendom. show me one devout christian that doesn't believe in "hell " ,  doesn't believe we have " free -will " or one that believes Scripture, not the doctrine of men.


Seems like you just might have made one.  Can you prove that there are none. Do you exclude christians who believe in universal salvation?

As I stated in my post it is my opinion.  If stating one's opinion is reason for banning then that is a real shame.




Okay, so you are a universalist, and don't believe in hell, that's fine. do you believe we have free will? and notice I also said, " one that believes Scripture , not doctrine of men".

You shouldn't be banned for stating your opinion, as you say. but what you said about us " being hasty to gerneralize " was a direct attack.


Here are the forum rules, in case you forgot to read them.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray or Mike. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray or Mike. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.

No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.

Thank you for your cooperation.



I don't think saying things like " we on this forum are guilty of hasty generalization " is being RESPECTFUL.

PS. universalists understand that all will eventually be saved, but they don't understand the process.


I edited the sentence to remove the part you deem disrespectful, although I didn't intend such.  

As far a being like minded, my reason for being here is basically a search for truth.  I have little faith in the doctrine of man and have begun studying scripture to try to find it.

I do not believe in trinity, tithing or everlasting punishment. My views on free will differ somewhat from that espoused on BT and I have been studying that. I understand the concept of God being the cause of everything.  My current OPINION based primarily on genesis is that we have choices within limits.  God gave us dominion over the earth and that we are free from force to make choices within the constraints of our human form and the earth as our "playground".

I have no intention of teaching as I am here to study and learn. There is too much for me to assimilate.


I have a dry sense of humor and under different circumstances might welcome an attack from "babes in the wood".   However, I also find it interesting that you emphasis the term respectful.

I am grateful for Ray and Mike for all they have done to put up the site and provide a strong foundation to challenge existing doctine.

I don't really care what your beliefs are but gave you some of mine to answer your questions.

I don't really have any real issues with anyone or any of the concepts here.  If you truly think I am a wolf then you should clearly  have me banned.  

feat
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jennie

  • Guest
confusion
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2006, 08:31:41 PM »

Hey Feat, I am so sorry my questions made people angry with you. That was not my intention at all and I hope you will forgive me for that. Sincerely, Jennie
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Sorin

  • Guest
Question From Jennie
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2006, 08:37:26 PM »

Harry,

I don't know if you're a wolf, and don't really think you are. I appreciate you correcting the sentence. you're welcomed to stay. I guess I got a little upset at first when I read that.

By the way, my beliefs are unlike anything you will ever learn in a church,
I don't believe in contradiction. Nor do I believe God's word contradicts.
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gmik

  • Guest
question from jennie
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2006, 08:42:12 PM »

HI, Jennie...God showed me truths years ago so I left the Babylonian system-understanding Churchianity and for years just called myself a follower of Jesus.  I have read your posts and really like you and believe you are sincere with us.  Personally, I don't have a problem with you and your little "church".  Fellowship with a few folks, hearing the word, helping out your neighbor is hardly back in Babylon.  My grown kids go to church in a neighboring state and to see my granddaughter I go down there once in a while.  Sitting in this building does not make me back in Christendom. I just read my notes from BT, so it is not a waste of time.

 Just an aside...that church was where Carlton Pearson was the pastor of my pastor when he announced his Inclusion message.  Ha.  I didn't believe it then but never forgot about it. Jennie, God has you where He wants you right now.  Trust.  Don't worry.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: confusion
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2006, 08:58:24 PM »

Quote from: jennie
Hey Feat, I am so sorry my questions made people angry with you. That was not my intention at all and I hope you will forgive me for that. Sincerely, Jennie


Hi Jennie,

You are very sweet. Your question didn't cause me any problems and you have nothing to be sorry or forgiven for.  I didn't take any of the responses to be angry.  I just expected a different kind of reaction than I got.

One thing is for sure, I have learned a lot about other people's opinion about christendom.  Thanks bobby for your perspective. It was helpful for me to understand your initial reaction.  Sorin thanks for saying I can stay, that was really kind of you. Ertsky, death by lamb attack is hillarious on so many levels. And I thought I had a dry sense of humor.

I think I learned a lot today.  Thanks for the post Jennie

feat
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jennie

  • Guest
confusion
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2006, 08:59:39 PM »

Thank you so much Gena. Your post made me feel much better. To be quite honest I was about to tears over making people angry. Thank you again.
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rvhill

  • Guest
Re: confusion
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2006, 09:15:28 PM »

Quote from: jennie
Thank you so much Gena. Your post made me feel much better. To be quite honest I was about to tears over making people angry. Thank you again.


I don't see how you made anyone angry, but that is a gift I have.  I was talking to this atheist, and saying how the doctrine of hell made him so angry. I told him I was a universalist, and I could make him more angry then the hell doctrine. He ask how. :twisted:
So I told him I believe that one day he and everyone else, would one day be a happy slave of Jesus, and he would like it. Also, he would wonder how he could have ever been an atheist., I would post what he replied, but it might get me banned. :shock:
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