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Author Topic: Was all scripture fulfilled in 70AD?  (Read 4461 times)

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Nancy

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Was all scripture fulfilled in 70AD?
« on: October 24, 2006, 06:05:36 PM »

Hi there all,

I have been studying preterism lately because I wanted to know more about the mark of the beast and if it is still on the cards.

The book of Daniel clearly points to the conclusion of 70AD but does Revelation?
Was it written before 70AD or as stated by the early church fathers that it was in the reign of Domitian that John was exiled to Patmos and wrote Revelation?

If Revelation has no relevance (excuse the pun) what is the mark of the beast that had to be taken if you wanted to buy or sell? I can't believe that it is a spiritual sign because it then says that the people who took the mark had grevious sores.

Also what happens to Israel if it's all fulfilled? Doesn't it have a purpose anymore?
Does God still work in the world anymore? Thinking that He doesn't makes me down!!!

Any thoughts?
Nancy
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Was all scripture fulfilled in 70AD?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2006, 06:21:06 PM »

Hi Nancy,

Ray writes on this subject in this article (among others);


 http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html

Here is a portion,


PRETER WHO?

For centuries theologians have written books on such unscriptural prophecy theories as, "Preterism," (all has been fulfilled in the past), and "Futurism, (all is yet to be fulfilled in the future). I get emails all the time asking if I am a Preterist or a Futurist? I tell them, "No, I am a Jesus-ist" (just kidding—I think I coined a new word).

Why, oh why, don’t they just listen to Jesus? Can you not all see from what I presented above, that the book of Revelation is neither "Preterist" nor "Futurist?"

THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS TO ALL CHURCHES, IN ALL GENERATIONS, FOR ALL WHO READ THIS PROPHECY, WHEN JESUS OPENS IT TO THEM, IN THEIR OWN LIFETIME (which comes quickly and is over shortly)!

I ask, "Why?" But, of course, I know the reason:

"He that has an ear, let him hear [SPIRITUALLY] what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 2:7).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 11).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 17).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 29).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 3:8).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 13).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 22).

JESUS OFTEN REPEATED HIS SELF

So why did I repeat the very same sentence SEVEN TIMES? I can’t take credit for that; it wasn’t my idea. Why would JESUS tell us the same thing SEVEN TIMES in just two chapters (I submit to you that they is only ONE chapter—only ‘men’ would see the wisdom in breaking up the seven churches into two chapters).

When Jesus repeats something, it is because it is VERY important. When Jesus wanted to emphasize something, He prefaced His statements by repetition: "Martha, Martha…" "Simon, Simon…" "Verily, verily…"

And when Jesus says something three times, you have got to know that it is something EXTREMELY important:

"And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let his cup pass from Me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou will …

Again the second time

… And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying THE SAME WORDS" (Matt. 26:39, 42, 44).

What might it imply that Jesus has said seven times, "He that has an ear, let him HEAR …" This has got to be MOST important for Him to repeat it to all seven churches. Not only are the individual churches to hear what Jesus points out to them, but everything pointed out to the individual churches to be heard by ALL THE OTHER CHURCHES AS WELL.

"…let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches [all the churches]."

Doesn’t everyone have ears? Then why can’t they "hear" what Christ has to say to the seven churches? Because I already showed you very clearly in previous installments why people can’t understand Jesus. Why they can’t understand His parables such as Lazarus and the Rich man. Why they don’t believe MANY of the plain statements of God’s Word, such as I Tim. 3:4 and 4:10. It is because you can’t hear the real meaning of God’s words with physical and carnal ears! And many of the leaders are among themost carnal in the church.

THE DEVIL MAKES MAN MINDFUL OF PHYSICAL THINGS

The devil has always been mindful of physical, literal, material things. That’s what Satan "dines" on—

"…DUST [of man] shall you eat all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: ‘swallow up’]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Yes, the Adversary eats "dust" and we, mankind, ARE "dust" of the ground. Satan does not feast on spiritual food—it would choke him! Satan dines on the carnal [flesh/meat] mind of men. While Jesus was physically starving for forty days, He was feasting on spiritual food from heaven! Satan thought he could trick Jesus into satisfying His need for physical FOOD before He was finished dining on spiritual food with His Father!

"Then was Jesus led up of THE SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered" […and so was STARVING, The Four Gospels By C.H. Rieu].

And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If you be the Son of God, command that these stones be made BREAD" (Matt. 4:1-3).

Satan should have realized that one doesn’t tempt a Spiritual Giant with a loaf of physical bread.

IT TAKES SPIRITUAL EARS TO HEAR SPIRITUAL WORDS

Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):

"WHY do ye [all of us] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).

"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

Practically the whole Church believes and teaches that Jesus spoke literal little stories about physical people, places, and things, so that everyone could understand Him. One cannot hear words of spirit with physical ears.

All they heard were the physical vibrations in the air against their physical eardrums. Their heart and mind and spirit didn’t hear a thing! We just read the Scriptures above, where the greatest theologians and thinkers in the law could not "hear" and understand Jesus. Little has changed in two thousand years!

As long as people think what Jesus taught was physical, and material, and literal, then they will never understand. Were the parables given to enhance understanding? I speak as fool (read Matt. 13). Were the teachings of Jesus, temporary, physical, literal? Let Him answer:

"…the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63)!

Parables have a SPIRITUAL meaning, and all of Christ’s teachings are SPIRITUAL. And that is because His very "words" ARE SPIRIT! Remember that Revelation is the "revelation OF Jesus Christ," it is HIS testimony. The "words" of His testimony are therefore, also, "SPIRIT."

So once again: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says…" What "who" says? Just "who" is doing the speaking here in Revelation? "…hear what THE SPIRIT says…" It is "the SPIRIT" speaking to the churches, and the words being spoken are those of Jesus, which "words are SPIRIT," and "the LORD [Jesus Christ] is that SPIRIT…" (II Cor. 3:17).

This subject is addressed in many of Ray's papers, not the topic of Preterism per se' but the concept of "is, was, will be"

Hope This helps,

Joe 

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Was all scripture fulfilled in 70AD?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2006, 06:38:28 PM »

Hi again Nancy,

Here is an e-mail where this question is raised;



Dear Mr. Smith,

I have thoroughly enjoyed your web site! I have recommended your site to my friends who think "outside the box". Do not get discouraged from the mindless criticism you receive from those who are "in the system"!

I am a 47-year-old who was raised as a faithful Southern Baptist. There have been two issues that have bothered me a great deal about orthodox Christianity. The first has to do with soteriology:

How can a God who is "rich in mercy" send 90+% of the human race to everlasting torment in hell? And how can this be considered "victorious" over the fall that Satan brought about?

Now, the reason I am writing is in regard to a second problem that I hope you can enlighten me on eschatology. The specifics are this: If one puts aside all "grids" and reads the New Testament with fresh eyes, he will observe the following:

Jesus taught unequivocally that the generation that would see him die would be the same generation that would see him return.
His apostles understood him to teach this.
The book of Revelation confirms it.
The Old Testament prophets also teach this.
The nature of the resurrection and the Lord's coming has been completely misinterpreted by the historical church.
As you probably know, the system that accepts these statements as true is known as "full preterism" or "realized eschatology".

I have spent many long hours on the web reading their material. They support their position very well. Interestingly, the criticisms that preterists receive are similar to those that you receive: lots of cynicism, name-calling, labeling, etc. If scriptures are quoted at all, it's from a shallow, non-thinking point of view.

Perhaps the whole preterist argument is an issue of "rightly dividing the word of God"?

I would appreciate any response you could give on the matter and I'll forward them to others I know who are likewise wrestling with this issue.

Sincerely,

David

[Ray Replies]

Dear David:

Thank you for your email and comments about preterism.

I do comment from time to time on this theory, however, I have not ever handled it as a separate paper. I am at least a little familiar with the preterist and futurist approach to prophecy.

David, what if there is a third approach? The Scriptural approach? Would you be ready to consider that? I cover this principle in passing in Part X ( http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html )  of my series on "The Lake of Fire."

Let me let the Scriptures shatter BOTH the preterist and futurist theory on prophecy fulfillment.  I'll not attempt to harmonize all of the prophecies of Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Matt. 24 and the the book of Revelation in one email. I have sixty more emails to answer. Hope you understand.

I think we can all agree that the Book of Revelation covers a larger assortment of prophetic world events than the rest of the prophets put together. The Book of Revelation is "the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." (It is decidedly NOT the revelation of St. John the Divine).  And just what is "the testimony" of Jesus Christ? 

"...for the testimony of Jesus is THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY" (Rev. 19:10).

Now then, is this prophecy of Revelation futurist or preterist? IT IS NEITHER! The answer is so simple, but who will believe it? I will give you the answer (not a full explanation, JUST THE ANSWER -- for now anyway):

"The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which God gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY [or QUICKLY, is this 'preterist'? -- see my Series on the Lake of Fire for an explanation of this statement] come to pass; and He sent and SIGNIFIED [symbolized] it by His angel unto His servant John:  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.  Blessed is HE THAT READS ['futurist'?], and THEY THAT HEAR [those in John's day? Or those during the middle ages? Or those in these latter days?] the words of this prophecy ['futurist'?], and KEEP those things which are written therein; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND ['preterist'? I cover this phrase in my Lake of Fire series]."

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto YOU [just the seven literal, physical, churches in Asia during the first century? Remember that this 'testimony' of Jesus is SPIRITUAL, Rev. 19:10. "Hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches, 2:7, 11, 17, etc.], and peace, from Him WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH  IS  TO COME..."!!! (Rev. 1:1-4).

There is your SCRIPTURAL ANSWER, David. Everything in the Book of Revelation (which is the testimony--the prophecy of Jesus Christ), leading up to the consummation of all things, differs not from Jesus Christ Himself which, "IS, WAS, AND WILL BE." See, Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17; 16:5, etc. Preterists deny the FUTURE: Futurists deny the PAST: BOTH deny THE NOW -- what presently "IS"!

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 06:43:14 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Kat

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Re: Was all scripture fulfilled in 70AD?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2006, 07:07:25 PM »


Hi Nancy,

Here is a small excerpt from Ray's article, lake of fire--13.

You will want to read the whole article,
to get a good understanding of what is being said here.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------------------

This image of the wild beast from the sea then causes everyone to worship this image, and causes all to receive a MARK of the first wild beast from the sea in their right hand, or in their foreheads. They can have either a mark or the name or the number of his name, and that number is said (albeit not correctly said) to be the number of a man, and it is the number 666.

Now repeat all that back to me in your own words! Okay, let’s try this shortened version: a beast from the earth causes all to worship a beast from the sea and to also make an image of this beast from the sea, who then causes all to receive either a mark, name, or number. Got it?

*the image, name, and number of the wild beast" all have reference to the one beast that comes up out of the sea and is the wild beast made reference to for the remainder of the book of Revelation. It is this very "wild beast" along with the "false prophet" which is ultimately "…cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:21).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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