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BACKSLIDING
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: orion77 on October 26, 2006, 01:30:54 AM ---
For me, I cannot say who will or will not partake of the second death, be in the lake of fire. I will leave that to the righteous judge, seeing He knows the intent of our hearts and minds.
--- End quote ---
Gary,
Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.
If Abraham, David and John the Baptist are not yet "saved" I think it is a given Judas isn't either.
Israel's opportunity for redemption does not come "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in."
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Chapter 11 of Romans is very informative on this subject.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Andy_MI:
Hi all,
Just a thought I had while reading the posts:
What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?
Mat 27:51-53 VW
(51) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
(52) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(53) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and were manifest to many.
Joe said:
--- Quote ---Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.
--- End quote ---
Wouldn't the above verses negate this statement? They died before the death an resurrection of our Lord. And would it be too presumptious to think that they had the oppurtunity to believe on the Lord after they were raised?
What about Judas? Didn't he repent after he betrayed the Lord? Wouldn't that mean that he was forgiven?
Mat 27:3-4 VW
(3) Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He was condemned, repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4) saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to it.
Also I only see the one's whos names are not written in the Lambs book of life cast into the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Rev 20:11-15 VW
(11) And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away. And there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, out of the things which were written in the books.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one, according to their works.
(14) And Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
(15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Any comments?
Peace,
Andy
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Andy_MI on October 26, 2006, 09:47:07 AM ---Hi all,
Just a thought I had while reading the posts:
What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?
--- End quote ---
Andy,
Do you believe they were raised with incorruptable bodies and ascended into heaven?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on October 25, 2006, 05:04:16 PM ---
What Joe writes is begging the question....Are the OT Prophets the Servants and the NT faithful the SONS. I say yes...am looking for the second witness.....am hoping Gary will come up with something good as well as others who will be thinking about this subject.....
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
Hello Arcturus,
The following is from Ray's paper "The 12 Truths" http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
This is from # 9,
Turn to Hebrews 11. Although Elijah is not mentioned by name in this chapter, he is, nonetheless, included, as he certainly was "…OF the PROPHETS" (Verse 32). What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I’m about to knock your socks off:
"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES… For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country… they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY… And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]… RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided something better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn’t happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).
WOW!
I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.
ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.
ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.
ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.
ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.
OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."
WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,
WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.
THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!
Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).
Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: ‘apart from’] US should NOT be made perfect [or ‘complete’].
Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except though those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).
Have you not read:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruitst" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16). My, what we can learn when we begin to obey the commandments of GOD.
All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself. Remember that should someone wants to show you from "a" single Scripture that there is no end to the lake of fire, for example.
Kat:
Hi Andy,
I think I see what your saying.
The saints of Jesus' day, died before His death and resurrection, so could not be in the kingdom.
But they were resurrected back to physical life, after Christ had risen.
So now they were able to receive the Holy Spirit and Christ could live in them,
and if they were one of the chosen, would be in the kingdom.
I had never looked at it that way before.
They were so close, lived at the time of Jesus,
but died before they could receive His Spirit.
So God, in His astounding love for those few, miraculously brought them back to life,
to give them what they just barely missed.
How great is our God :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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