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[orion77]

(Rom 11:30 LITV)  For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy by the disobedience of these,

(Rom 11:31 LITV)  so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.

(Rom 11:32 LITV)  For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.


These verses are amazing to me.  We obtain mercy because of their disobedience, and they will obtain mercy by our mercy.  Yet we only receive mercy because of their disobedience.  It is definetly all of and because of Him, there can be no boasting of one over another.  We all, whether under the old or the new are totally reliant upon His mercy, because we all have been disobedient.

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

Amen Gary,

Excellent post.

[Andy_MI]

Hi Joe,

You said:

I certainly agree and can see (as Kat wrote) that those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus' resurrection were given the opportunity to receive the "better promise," the New Covenant, but they were still "in the flesh" and were yet imperfect, they were not raised to immortality.

Yes, that is my point exactally. On that we agree 100%.  No where did I say that they were raised to incorruption and immortality.

Actually they would no longer be under the old testment but under the new.  See what I'm saying?  So that would not contradict any scripture pertaining to Heb 11.

You said:

Judas died before Christ did, are you saying Judas was one of those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection? John the Baptist also died before Jesus, that is why it is written that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, John the Baptist was still under the Old Covenant.

All of the saints that were resurrected after Christ were also dead before he died,, weren't they? or am I wrong? I'm not nor did I say that Judas and John the Baptist were among them. I believe I stated that we don't know the names.  Now here's what the scripture says about John the Baptist.

Mat 11:11 CLV
(11)  "Verily, I am saying to you, Not among those born of women has there been roused a greater than John the baptist. Yet he who is smaller, in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.

This verse could indeed conclude that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection but does it conclude that his name is not written in the book of life and therefore is cast into the lake of fire along with the unbelievers??  That's my question concerning the Old testament saints.

Now Judas is another story. Was he a saint?  Do we know.  The scripture says that Jesus chose the twelve and one of them was a devil.

Joh 6:70-71 KJVR
(70)  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71)  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

But it also says about Judas:

Mat 27:3-4 KJVR
(3)  Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4)  Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

So in your statement:

No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.

My question is ,,, how can we know for sure that Judas' name is not written in the book of life?  Only those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:12-15 KJVR
(12)  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13)  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15)  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I'm not saying one way or the other.  I'm saying that we cannot and should not be sitting in judgement over him at this time.  We are not in that position to do so.  

He may very well end up in the lake of fire,, I don't know and I don't think that can be proven.  He may end up getting anywhere from 1 to 40 stripes rather that given the portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:46-48 KJVR
(46)  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(47)  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
(48)  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

God is the righteous judge and he gives every man acording to His righteous judgement.  I don't see every receiving the exact same judgement at the second resurrection, but according to the things that are written in the books, and according to our deeds done in our flesh.

Thanks Joe for this discussion. I'm enjoying this and I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you.  I have nothing but love and respect for you my brother.

Peace,

Andy

[Kat]

Hi Andy,

You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.

Do you know that for a fact?  Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.  Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.

But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?

Mat 26:24  The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.

'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9  Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Andy_MI]

Hi Andy,

You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.

Do you know that for a fact?  Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.  Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.

But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?

Mat 26:24  The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.

'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9  Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

God bless you Kat! You always come up with the right things to say. You're such a blessing to this fellowship.

I leave all judgement to the Righteous Judge.

Joh 5:22 KJVR
(22)  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Peace,

Andy

[Deborah-Leigh]

I GOT IT!.....

Thank you Joe! ..quoting Ray...


..".THE SAINTS OF OLD HAD NOT YET RECIEVED THEIR PROMISES SO GUESS WHAT!  THEY ARE......AWAITING THE  SECOND RESURECTION...."

I GOT IT JOE......THE SECOND RESURECTION.....THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT!....the White Throne judgement.... .......

I had read this before from Ray's 12 Truths's but had not SEEN IT

Does this scripture open up for us another issue?....Matt 5 : 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness, your uprightness and your right standing with God is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven....

Why didn't Jesus say...For I tell you, unless your righteousness, your uprightness and your right standing with God is more than that of the SAINTS AND PROPHETS....etc....?  Could this mean we are in the 11 hour...Matt 20: 1, 6,7...For the Kingdom of heaven is like the owner of an estate who went out in the morning along with the dawn to hire workmen for his vineyard.  6 And about the eleventh hour, he went out and found stillothers standing around, and said to them, Why do you stand here idle all day? 7..They answered him, Because nobody has hired us. He told them, You go out into the vinyard also and you will get whatever is just and fair....

This  forum looks like a vinyard to me...."You are the branches, He is the vine.....

Arcturus.... ...straining to SEE

[eggi]

Just some thoughts...

Speaking about judgement now (dying daily) as opposed to judgement later (Lake of Fire), isn't this scripture telling us something about how this is balanced by God?:

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish. (Luk 16:25 ASV)

A lifetime of judgements is better than Lake of Fire, but it seems that they are similar experiences. We know that the timing is different:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. (1Co 15:23 ASV)
[...] that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28 ASV)

and that:

For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (1Th 5:9 ASV)

Salvation is ultimately for all in Adam, but God's elect receive a great reward ahead of the rest of mankind. They begin to receive this in this present age:

For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
(Tit 2:11-14 ASV)

and what are those who endure to the end given?:

Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: (2Ti 2:11-12 ASV)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 ASV)

That should be a huge enough reward, it is a marvelous privilege to have Christ in you in this present wicked age, and then to reign with Him for the millennium. Everyone gets the same payment in the end:

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the laborers for a shilling a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing in the marketplace idle;
and to them he said, Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing; and he saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard.
And when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the laborers, and pay them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a shilling.
And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received every man a shilling.
And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
So the last shall be first, and the first last. (Mat 20:1-16 ASV)

We all walk by the same rule:

Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:
only, whereunto we have attained, by that same rule let us walk. (Phi 3:13-16 ASV)

and should take heed:

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1Co 10:12 ASV)

and put ourselves low:

When you are invited to a wedding feast, don't sit in the best place. Someone more important may have been invited.
Then the one who invited you will come and say, "Give your place to this other guest!" You will be embarrassed and will have to sit in the worst place. (Luk 14:8-9 CEV)

Please, your thoughts on this!

God bless you and keep you,
Eirik

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks Joe for this discussion. I'm enjoying this and I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you.  I have nothing but love and respect for you my brother.

Peace,

Andy

Hello Andy,

The feeling is mutual Brother, I never felt you were arguing or debating, just seeking clarification. The Spirit has blessed me through your posts many times and I am truly thankful for your fellowship here, I am sure there are quite a few others here who would agree with me.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[gmik]

There is not really a lake and there is not really fire.  The elect who reigned for 1000 years is really the LOF. 

Am I correct in this??

Those 500 who were resurrected I just always assumed were an average class of people, I never included the prophets in that bunch. I always wondered if they just continued living out another lifespan (much to the amazement of their family I would think).  Does anyone know if Paul ever mentions them or what the spiritual *not-allowed* means.  Thats another whole study topic. Why did that even happen???

gena

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Gina,

Many of your questions are answered here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

The following is a portion from the article.

FIRE IN THE LAKE

The lake of fire presents us with another enigma if taken literally. A literal lake is a body of water, not fire. We learned that the Divine purifying presence of God is in this lake in the form of spiritual brimstone. If it were water in the lake, we might conclude that those thrown into this lake are to be washed. The Bible does use water as a symbol of washing away our dirty sins. However, giant spiritual character flaws need more than washing, they need to be obliterated if they are "wood, straw, and stubble." And even the "gold, silver, and precious stones" need to be purged and purified if they are to be perfected.

One cannot wash away the impurities of the carnal mind any more than one can wash away the impurities in gold ore by water. It takes power, and heat, and the molecular separating qualities of fire to purify gold ore. And likewise, water has little effect on eliminating wood, straw, and stubble. But put fire to this same wood, straw, and stubble, and it will be obliterated, annihilated, eradicated, and exterminated.

This is the lesson we are to learn from God’s spiritual fire. Spiritual fire will purify good qualities to total perfection but will obliterate character flaws to total extinction. And so it is that God uses spiritual fire to produce the greatest possible good, not to cause the severest possible pain and torture.

GOD IS CALLING YOU
TO BE A PART OF HIS MARVELOUS PLAN

Here is God’s plan:

"And God said, Let us make man in OUR IMAGE…" (Gen. 1:26).

"Ye [‘ye’ means ‘all of you’] therefore shall BECOME [it’s a process] perfect even has your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to BECOME [it’s a process] the SONS OF GOD…" (John 1:12).

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD" (Rom. s8:14).

"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the CHILDREN OF GOD: And if children, then heirs, HEIRS OF GOD and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature [and the whole creation] waits for the manifestation of THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:1618).

"And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For ye ARE the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell IN them, and walk IN them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them [‘my people’ Rev. 18:4] and be ye separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:16-18).

"But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION OF SONS. And because ye ARE SONS, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a SON; and if a SON, then an HEIR OF GOD through Christ" (Gal. 4:5-7).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, THE SONS OF GOD, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15).

"For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing MANY SONS UNTO GLORY, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10).

"According as He has chosen us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of A SON…" (Eph. 1:4, Concordant Literal New Testament).

"Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called THE SONS OF GOD: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew Him not" (I John 3:1).

Now then, did God plan to call these sons? Did He have it all worked out in advance? Is there any chance of failure in bringing these Sons to glory? Let’s read it:

For whom He [GOD] did FOREKNOW, He also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to THE IMAGE [Remember Gen. 1:26—"Let us make man in OUR IMAGE…"] of HIS SON, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did PREDESTINATE, them He also CALLED; and whom He called, them He also JUSTIFIED: and whom He justified, them He also GLORIFIED" (Rom. 8:29-30).

It should be noted that the verbs in this verse are in the Greek aorist tense and should more properly be translated, PREDESTINATES, CALLS, JUSTIFIES, AND GLORIFIES. This is not a past and completed act only, but a continuous process into the future.

God is calling Sons and Daughters into Glory! All that He "foreknew" He will bring to fruition. But for what purpose? To roll ‘round heaven all day? To play harps and sing gospel music for all eternity? To glut ourselves on dainty foods like some fat monarch? What is God’s first order of the day when all these SONS of God are manifested? Just what will they do? Or will they do nothing? We read part of the answer in one of the Scriptures quoted above. Let’s read a little more. There is a GRAND CHALLENGE AND MARVELOUS WORK waiting to be accomplished by the manifested SONS OF GOD:

THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT

"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Notice this verse in a few other translations:

"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).

"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).

"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).

Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).

To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!

WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it........................................


This article also addresses these issues;

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[gmik]

Excellent Joe, Thanks for the links!!
gena

[Deborah-Leigh]

Eiriik

I think you have some very precious insights there. Especially where you expound the Scripture regarding timing!