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Author Topic: Question about Judas  (Read 2944 times)

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PKnowler

  • Guest
Question about Judas
« on: October 31, 2006, 05:20:14 PM »

How do people who believe in universalism interpret this scripture, if everyone get saved?

Mark 14:21
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." 

Thanks, Paula
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mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 05:42:22 PM »

Paula,
  Just because everyone is going to be reconcilled to God in the end, doesn't mean that the process will be one that is enjoyed.  It is the same for our "fiery trials".  Judas will have the carnal man removed from him as well, and that is not a process any of us enjoy as we are going through it.

Hope this helps.

mongoose
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 05:44:30 PM »

Hi Paula,

I would say that Judas is the most notorious man known, to Christendom anyway.
What a distinction to have, the man who betrayed Christ, our Saviour.

I think what is meant by that verse,
is it would be better if he had not been born to that perticular distinction.

He will be brought up in the Great White Throne Judgment,
along with everybody else who was not in the first resurrection.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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PKnowler

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 05:49:35 PM »

Both of your responses, Kat & Mongoose, resonate with my spirit. I am satisfied with the answer, much more than some other answers I have gotten that have left me questioning.

Thank you!
~Paula
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Dan.ng

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 11:57:21 PM »

Hi Paula,

Below is a similiar question on Mark 14:21 & reply by Mr Ray Smith for your info. Hope that it is useful.

Hi
I'm curious to know what your views are on Mark 14:21 where it says that it would have been better for Judas Iscariot if he had never been born.
Traditionally I have always been taught that this means that he went to a place so horrible that it would have been better that he wasnt even born and that this place is Hell.
If his punishment isnt eternal or lengthy but just to be burned in a lake of fire a death that would only take a few seconds or minutes at the most why would the Lord say the above.
I'd like to know what your views are on Mark 14: 21.
I'm approaching this with an open mind and only telling you what I've been taught.
Yours Yiannis.


Dear Yiannis:
I have answered this question many times in the past. My time is short now, So I will make this quick: This verse does NOT say that it would have been better for Judas if Judas had never been born. This is a King James translation problem.
 
The King James reveres the order of words as found in the Greek manuscripts in the last part of this verse:
 
Here is how it reads in the manuscripts:
 
"The Son of man indeed goes as it is written of HIM [Who is 'Him?' Why, the Son of man] but woe to THAT MAN [Who is 'that man?' Why, Judas] by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good [or 'ideal'] were it for HIM [The Son of man, NOT, Judas. The manuscripts put 'HIM' before 'that man'] if THAT MAN had never been born."
 
So here is what is being said: "...woe be to Judas by whom Jesus is betrayed. Ideal were it for Jesus if Judas had never been born."
God be with you,
Ray
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 12:50:25 AM »

Thanks Dan.ng.  I knew I had read it somehwhere but just couldn't remember.
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WildOlive

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 10:41:41 AM »

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Layla

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 10:55:40 AM »

Hi - Hope this helps.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1324.0.html

I have checked this out through the Interlinear Bible and both the Mark and Mathew scriptures agree with Ray's conclusions.  Check it out for yourself

http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htm

Peace,
Layla

Edited to add (my apologies I see someone has already brought this forward).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 10:57:16 AM by Layla »
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PKnowler

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 12:33:42 PM »

Hi - Hope this helps.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1324.0.html

I have checked this out through the Interlinear Bible and both the Mark and Mathew scriptures agree with Ray's conclusions.  Check it out for yourself

http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htm

Peace,
Layla

Thanks for answering my question and for the resources. I'm glad to have the link for the interlinear Bible! I don't see how you could check this scripture out through the interlinear though it doesn't give any definite answer to me on the subject. 

Thanks though!
~Paula

to add (my apologies I see someone has already brought this forward).

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Layla

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 12:50:17 PM »

Hi Paula

While certainly this scripture does not refute that Jesus had predicted a "woe" for Judas. My point is that the "woe" is not that it was better for Judas if he (Judas) had never been born, which is what the majority of the church believes, i.e. that Judas' fate is going to be so bad that it would have been better if Judas had never been born. The fact that Judas repented tells me there is no "future" judgment. IMO, his "woe" he lived here on earth.

Peace,
layla
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 01:06:03 PM by Layla »
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PKnowler

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 12:54:39 PM »

Hi Paula,

Below is a similiar question on Mark 14:21 & reply by Mr Ray Smith for your info. Hope that it is useful.

Hi
I'm curious to know what your views are on Mark 14:21 where it says that it would have been better for Judas Iscariot if he had never been born.
Traditionally I have always been taught that this means that he went to a place so horrible that it would have been better that he wasnt even born and that this place is Hell.
If his punishment isnt eternal or lengthy but just to be burned in a lake of fire a death that would only take a few seconds or minutes at the most why would the Lord say the above.
I'd like to know what your views are on Mark 14: 21.
I'm approaching this with an open mind and only telling you what I've been taught.
Yours Yiannis.


Dear Yiannis:
I have answered this question many times in the past. My time is short now, So I will make this quick: This verse does NOT say that it would have been better for Judas if Judas had never been born. This is a King James translation problem.
 
The King James reveres the order of words as found in the Greek manuscripts in the last part of this verse:
 
Here is how it reads in the manuscripts:
 
"The Son of man indeed goes as it is written of HIM [Who is 'Him?' Why, the Son of man] but woe to THAT MAN [Who is 'that man?' Why, Judas] by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good [or 'ideal'] were it for HIM [The Son of man, NOT, Judas. The manuscripts put 'HIM' before 'that man'] if THAT MAN had never been born."
 
So here is what is being said: "...woe be to Judas by whom Jesus is betrayed. Ideal were it for Jesus if Judas had never been born."
God be with you,
Ray


This is what I have heard before (not from Ray though) and it seems to me a twisting of scripture to make it fit. But reading it the way Ray puts it seems to make sense. On second thought I think it was "Ideal were it for Judas if Jesus had never been born" that I had a problem with.

What Ray wrote makes sense "Ideal were it for Jesus if Judas had never been born" beause of the suffering Jesus was going to go through in His flesh. Jesus DID pray to His Father to take this cup from Him.

Ray has a way of answering scripture that helps you SEE IT!

Thanks, Paula
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jamesnw

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2006, 06:42:51 PM »

Thanks Layla! :) I had no idea that that software (scripture4all) existed! :) Very nice, I can very quickly see what the original meaning was. I especilly like how the word "born" is said to mean "'WAS-generatED", hehehe.  ;D
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2006, 04:45:54 PM »

Hi WildOlive

I had the time to study that article. Thank you. It brought me particular comfort because it helped me understand things I needed to understand.

Arcturus  :)

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pstrevnglstchrls

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2006, 11:52:12 PM »

To understand Judas one must first dove into the sons of perdition.
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mick24458

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2006, 08:27:11 AM »

Whatever the answer, what a terrible judgement he will have, facing the full implications of the choice that he made. Perhaps it would be better that he had never been born. I pray that when I stand before the Lord, he has already purged me of all uncleanliness and I hear the words, "Well done good and faithful servant!" To this end let us all work and leave Judas's judgement to the Judge.
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.
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jamesnw

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2006, 11:09:48 PM »

Quote
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time [or "be not judging anything before the season"-CLV]
Just remember, at "the appointed time", it is the sons of God who will judge the world, not just Jesus by himself. :)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 11:10:11 PM by jamesnw »
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mick24458

  • Guest
Re: Question about Judas
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 07:58:12 AM »

There is an aspect where the sons of God will do some judging but we are not The Judge:
Acts 10:42-43 And he ordered us to preach everywhere and to testify that Jesus is ordained of God to be the judge of all the living and the dead.
I still think it is wisdom to leave this judging to Him.
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