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hillsbororiver

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THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« on: November 02, 2006, 07:45:54 PM »

The Lake of Fire - PART II

THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN

I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never Gods intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldnt be in the giant mess it is in today. O really? Well, why then didnt Adam exercise restraint. What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design. God was the Designer; is God the blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that Gods creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns Gods sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that Gods solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-mined human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Heres the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Lets look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [thats God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-mined approach, this Scripture is devastating. Lets see what these words entail from Strongs GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didnt ask anyones permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being Gods Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for God is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence us], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didnt even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eves eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards. Just two verses before Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils, he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [groaning and travailing in pain together until now Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).

ONLY GOD IS RESPONSIBLE

The entire article can be read here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html


His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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Madeline

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2006, 09:52:26 PM »

I like your post hillsbororiver! Its long, but I love it!

Love,
Madeline
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Layla

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2006, 11:21:18 PM »

Hi Joe

That is an excellent work by Ray.  There are many people who won't seem to allow themselves to understand that God created evil.  Frankly, in the recent discussion (and a previous very lengthy one I had with a friend) regarding man being created evil I wondered whether I was just "refusing" to accept a truth.  God plainly states that He created evil tranliterated "ra" and the "destroyer" and yet thousands of Christians believe satan was a good angel gone bad and God sits on the sidelines wringing his hands together wondering how many will "choose" Him over satan.

I think it is important that we understand the sovereignty of God and trust that He is in control and works all things out for good to those who love Him.  It is also important that we understand that we believe the Word of God and that if God says He created evil, we believe it whether we understand it or not.  Personally, I think it is because it must be experienced in order to be overcome.  I found this piece by J. Preston Eby and I thought it was appropriate for this thread.  Hope you don't mind.

"It is my deep conviction, and I say it with all reverence and respect to my blessed Lord and Saviour, but the truth is that Jesus in the natural suffered no more on the cross than thousands of others who were nailed to a tree, or thousands of others who died on the rack during the Roman inquisition, or thousands of others who were burned at the stake, fed to the lions, or made blazing human torches at the Circus in Rome. The physical suffering was no greater. The cross of Christ refers to a greater spiritual cross and a greater spiritual death. The cross of Christ had its beginning that day in heaven, when the Word of God, "being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Fierce as was His suffering at Calvary, that fearful hour of agony and blood was but the final act of a life of the cross as step by step He descended from the majesty and glory of equality with God to the fearsome moment when in anguish He cried, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" Truly, as the scripture testifies, He was the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13: . The cross did not begin at Calvary!

Though I am sure it is impossible to plumb the shining depths and the inexhaustible riches of the meaning of the cross, I would like to endeavor to set before you the deeper meaning of the cross of Christ. We will never understand the mystery of the cross until by the spirit of wisdom and revelation from God our eyes perceive the eternal cross in the heart of God Himself. The only true and eternal life in the universe is the life of God. He alone is self-existent. He alone is reality. He alone is eternal substance. If we are to fully know and partake of that life, we must die to all that is contrary to that life. Everything that exists in the universe has its opposite and as surely as God exists there is the opposite for all that He is. God is love and the opposite of love is hate. God is light and the opposite of light is darkness. God is truth and the opposite of the truth is the lie. God is life and the opposite of life is death. Each positive has its negative, and all the laws of the universe reveal this principle of opposites. Jesus enunciated the fundamental principle of life when He said that except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone; but if it die it brings forth the increase of life. Every negative must be brought to death. Everything in the universe must die to all that is contrary to divine life and nature, being born again of the spirit. This is the meaning of, "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5). This has been the Father's plan for man man in the image and glory of the incorruptible God.

The principle was set in motion with the first man, Adam. Adam had to fall into darkness, sin and death, not because he was inherently evil or rebellious, but because all that is contradictory to God must be stirred up, experienced, faced, understood, repented of, overcome and eternally put to rest in man's will before the image of God can shine safely and eternally through him. In recent times my whole understanding of why the cross is the gateway to LIFE has been clarified and crystallized within my spirit. I have come to see that God Himself dies to everything but His self-giving Self, which is love. God Himself dies to every dark principle that would sow selfishness, pride, strife, bitterness, trouble, bigotry, hatred, viciousness, pain, sorrow, chaos, disappointment, weakness, limitation or evil of any kind. The cross is the very heart of God, and the basis of why He is the ETERNAL GOD. He is eternally God just because He IS ETERNALLY all that makes Him God.

But how is it that God is unchangeable in His nature is it because He cannot change or because He chooses not to change? Truly God "cannot lie" and God cannot be anything other than Life, Light and Love. But why cannot He be? The answer that the blessed spirit of Truth has revealed in my heart is because HE HAS ETERNALLY DIED TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT DARKNESS CAN ARISE IN HIS LIFE! The entire principle of darkness has its foundation in the life of God, for was it not God Himself who "divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night" (Gen. 1:5). "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7). This mystery of darkness in God's nature remains unrevealed because He has eternally willed to be Life, Light and Love. All the negative potential is there the law of opposites but there is a cross in God's heart by which He eternally dies to all that would make Him anything less than GOD. This is ALWAYS happening in God's life, because the cross is an eternal fact. "Eternity" doesn't mean unbeginning time in the long ago or unending time in the inscrutable future. Eternity means NO TIME. Eternity is TIME-LESS. This means that the decision to die to the negative principle is not subject to review or change it is forever settled and determined in the heart of God. That's why He says over and over, "I am the Lord; I change not." It is not that He is intrinsically set so that He cannot change. Rather it is that He has ETERNALLY CHOSEN not to change. It is an eternal, accomplished, irrevocable choice, born of wisdom and understanding. It is the eternal cross in His heart. Therefore He cannot change. He is forever love. He is forever pure. He is forever righteous. He is forever wisdom. He is forever light. He is forever life. And all that He is, is forever SAFE!

The cross is the secret of God's gift of love. It means that God does not live for HIMSELF. All the selfhood of God is forever crucified upon the cross in God's heart. Selfhood must be a vital characteristic in any life. The selfish desire that would cause God to live for Himself, and therefore be uncaring, vindictive, spiteful or cruel to His creatures to this God eternally dies. He has willed to be a Self for others, instead of a Self for self, by eternally dying to the dark, selfish principle. Andrew Murray said that the spirit of love is AN ETERNAL WILL TO ALL GOODNESS. The best and the most wonderful word in the universe is Love. For God is love. What is love? The deep desire to give itself for the beloved. Love finds its joy in imparting all that it has, all that it is, to make the loved one happy and fulfilled. This is THE ONE ETERNAL, IMMUTABLE GOD that, from eternity to eternity, changes not, that can be neither more nor less, but an ETERNAL WILL TO ALL THE GOODNESS that is in Himself and comes from Him. The creation of ever so many worlds adds nothing to, nor takes anything from, this immutable God: He always was, and always will be the same immutable WILL TO ALL GOODNESS. So that as certainly as He is the Creator, so certainly He is the Blesser of every created thing, and can give nothing but Blessing, Goodness and Happiness from Himself, because He has in Himself nothing else to give."


Peace,
Layla
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hillsbororiver

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2006, 09:48:12 AM »

I like your post hillsbororiver! Its long, but I love it!

Love,
Madeline

Hello Madeline,

There is so much treasure in Ray's articles, I have to read, reread and read again to mine it all, every time I do I find new insights.

God Bless,

Joe
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orion77

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2006, 10:19:53 AM »

Thank you Joe and Layla,

(Gen 1:5)  and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day one.

H216

'ôr
ore
From H215; illumination or (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.): - bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.

H3117

yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

H2822
ׁ
chôshek
kho-shek'
From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.

H3915
       
layil  lêyl  layelâh
lah'-yil, lale, lah'-yel-aw
From the same as H3883; properly a twist (away of the light), that is, night; figuratively adversity: - ([mid-]) night (season).


(Isa 45:7)  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

H3335

yâtsar
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): -  X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.

H1254
ּ
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

H6213
ׂ
‛âśâh
aw-saw'
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.


Interesting connection between light, darkness, day and night.  Also, forming, preparing, and making.  Adds a deeper insight into His process by reading the definitions.

God bless,

Gary
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hillsbororiver

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2006, 10:51:28 AM »

Hello Layla,

Thanks for the comments and I also thought your post was appropriate as well.

Gary,

I remember in an earlier thread (can't remember which one) when you mentioned how darkness came before light and night before day, and how the Sabbath typified this by beginning at sundown. All foreshadowing how we begin our spiritual lives in darkness and come to the Light, which is Him.That was truly a "eureka!" moment for me.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2006, 02:52:27 PM »

(Isa 45:7)  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

I like that Gary..... 8)

This is a happy thread.... :D

Thank you Joe

Arcturus :)
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jamesnw

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2006, 08:27:56 PM »

Quote
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

I was discussing this analogy with someone and realized that the analogy is a little weak. The idea is that God created man subject to vanity, on purpose. If man makes a machine, it is made to work, not to fail. A "malfunction" cannot be equated to something that was designed subject to vanity on purpose.

Perhaps a better analogy would be, When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that depends on him to do anything worth while, knowing that the machine will fall short based on the design, is the scientist responsible for the machine if it goes on its own an fails without him? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No [because it was designed that way]. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Just a thought. ;)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2006, 05:03:23 AM »

Hello James

I have taken your point....quote....When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that depends on him to do anything worth while, knowing that the machine will fall short based on the design, is the scientist responsible for the machine if it goes on its own an fails without him? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No [because it was designed that way]. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay....unquote.

I have traced onto this observation the following.....When GOD (not the scientist) creates MAN (not an experiement :D ) who depends on HIM to do anything worth while, knowing that MAN will fall short (of the Glory 8) ) based on GODS design, is GOD responsible for MAN if he goes on his own and fails without him? Yes. Does he...(he meaning either God or man...not sure which one you mean so taking both. a) Does he (as man) hold God responsible? (No. Christian Theologians try to take God off the proverbial hook...See Rays Critique of scond letter to Jame Kennedy refs....theologians try to make man responsible ::) ) or b) Does He (as God) hold man responsible. (No)...or the machine (Gods design) responsible. God does not hold his design responsible because He is the designer and He made his design according to His purpose that is perfect. So Gods design is perfect for Gods purpose that is to make man into the image of His Son Jesus Christ and to have many Sons and Daughters. Does man hold God responsible. (Those who have eyes do. Those who are trying to blame shift to man don't see that God is responsible and that man is accountable!) ;D I have learn't through Ray's study this and am still learning and appreciating this more and more that....Heb 4:13 And not a creature exists that is concealed from His sight, but all things are open and exposed naked and defenseless to the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do. 8)

I can not think up a suitable analogy for that one! :D

Peace

 :)

« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 07:35:02 AM by Arcturus »
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jamesnw

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Re: THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2006, 10:39:44 AM »

Nice. :)
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