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[mick24458]

Hi all, I'm a newbie to this forum. I've been reading Ray's stuff for about 5 months and it has really challenged my thinking on many theological fronts - hell, tithing, eschatology, free will, the trinity. I've been in Pentecostal churches ever since coming to a faith in Jesus and have always sought for my own answers to the many questions that arise, rather than just believing the teaching from the front. Ray's challenges, along with other reading that I have been doing, is making me re-examine much of what I believe and what my church teaches. I actually love my church and believe that the leadership is very sincere, though perhaps sincerely wrong on some issues. My real dilemma is that, as I read and research more, I find myself at odds with some of the teaching, which makes it a little difficult as I lecture in our Bible college and run Bible studies in my home.
I've been involved in a number of churches and have close association with people from many denominations and have now come to the conclusion that we all have our own "bells and smells and incense and nonsense and man-made doctrine".
Is it compromise to remain silent on some of these doctrines when wanting to keep fellowship with those who have honestly put their faith in Jesus and His death and resurrection? I'm open to your thoughts.

[Kat]

Hi mick,

You ask,

Is it compromise to remain silent on some of these doctrines when wanting to keep fellowship with those who have honestly put their faith in Jesus and His death and resurrection?

As you said, you are a teacher of the Word of God.

I lecture in our Bible college and run Bible studies in my home.

You are having your eyes opened to the Truth of God's Word.
Do you really think you could, in your position, keep silent on the Truth being reviled to you?
Would you continue to teach all of the Truth, or just what fits in with the churches doctrines.
You are in a difficult situation, not unlike to some degree, what most of us here have had to face.

Consider this scripture.
 
Mat 12:36  But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

If you are seeing these Truths, you will also realize that you can not be apart of the church,
that teaches against the Truth.

 2Co 6:17  Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
2Co 6:18  and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."

This is the narrow path, Matt 7:14, only a few will walk it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hart4god]

Well Hello Mick,

In the Matter of being a Teacher at a Bible college- God might be calling you to count the cost of your Faith  and not look  back. Many of us have lost things in the process of gaining Christ. In personal Bible studies- that would be more open to truth you can be more true to what you know, but to be a teacher- that is a heavy thing in the eyes of God and when you know Truth but fail to teach it- well, not good for anyone involved. But I would not advocate being rebellious to your administration or rogue in your teaching when your are employed. You  may just need to leave that situation in the future.

Your path to this point in your journey is very much like many of us here and specifically identical to my own-   
27 years in non-denominational Christianity and 13 different churches....

I have many friends (and family memebers) at different stages of understanding and truth. I love them all and very infrequently feel led to address anyr errors. Sometimes we just kind of ponder the sovereignty of God in people's lives.....that gets them gently thinking about the whole free-will thing. But usually it is just in the context of God's profound love for them.. non-confrontational. I try very much to keep fellowship peaceful. God is doing the work in their lives in the same way He did in yours (and mine).....in His own way and timing.

We are under no compulsion to convert people or correct their errors. It is so much more productive to live and bear good fruit and let them see the Love of the Father in you. If they ask, I have a ready answer (altho, like you with only 7 months of study under my belt, my answer is not like a convincing argument....more like- search the Scriptures to see if these things are true).

So God Bless your faith and your journey and He willl direct your steps and words to your firends and in your teaching responsibilites day by day.


judie h.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Mick

I really feel for you!  Just separate yourself from your self for a moment...............

Put yourself in Saul before Paul's shoes. He too had to revoke everything he had been taught and  bought from of the teachings and attitudes cultivated in the Snynagoges. Saul had a high profile, he had a job description and a future career. These are all things that Mystery Babylon offers to her proselytes. I think it is great that you are called out. Only God can do that.

It is a drag and a painful one as you begin feeling the heresy and seeing the false teaching. It is a bigger shock if the Harlot sees you and recognises the image of Christ forming in you and strikes you out by projecting on you what is in fact her crimes of spiritual harlotry and adultery. These pains are the pains of real persecution that earn rewards and these fires lit inside your heart are the fires of purification. I celebrate what God is doing in your life. You are called.....I see He has given you trust in Him and I feel confident  and hopeful for what Christ has begun in you He will complete......

Arcturus

 

[Layla]

Hi Mick

Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and read Judie's post again...   I especially like her thoughts regarding "counting the cost of your Faith" and her truthful words regarding we are not called to "convert" but rather to "witness".  God Bless and strengthen you in your walk.

Peace,
Layla

[hillsbororiver]

Well Hello Mick,

In the Matter of being a Teacher at a Bible college- God might be calling you to count the cost of your Faith  and not look  back. Many of us have lost things in the process of gaining Christ. In personal Bible studies- that would be more open to truth you can be more true to what you know, but to be a teacher- that is a heavy thing in the eyes of God and when you know Truth but fail to teach it- well, not good for anyone involved. But I would not advocate being rebellious to your administration or rogue in your teaching when your are employed. You  may just need to leave that situation in the future.

Your path to this point in your journey is very much like many of us here and specifically identical to my own-   
27 years in non-denominational Christianity and 13 different churches....

I have many friends (and family memebers) at different stages of understanding and truth. I love them all and very infrequently feel led to address anyr errors. Sometimes we just kind of ponder the sovereignty of God in people's lives.....that gets them gently thinking about the whole free-will thing. But usually it is just in the context of God's profound love for them.. non-confrontational. I try very much to keep fellowship peaceful. God is doing the work in their lives in the same way He did in yours (and mine).....in His own way and timing.

We are under no compulsion to convert people or correct their errors. It is so much more productive to live and bear good fruit and let them see the Love of the Father in you. If they ask, I have a ready answer (altho, like you with only 7 months of study under my belt, my answer is not like a convincing argument....more like- search the Scriptures to see if these things are true).

So God Bless your faith and your journey and He willl direct your steps and words to your firends and in your teaching responsibilites day by day.


judie h.

Amen Sister!

[Deborah-Leigh]

I have been pondering your situation....and my initial responce.

What would I have done if I had been in your shoes. God was kind to me. He only opened my eyes after my idol of my heart attachment to my Church had been smashed. God knew I would not give it up so He smashed it and dragged me out.

You on the other hand are in a completely different situation. I wonder what would anyone do in your shoes! What an awkward and challenging circumstance to have to face!

My initial responce was one of for warned is for armed.  John 15 : 18,19 " If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you.  19  If you belonged to the world, the world would treat you with affection and would love you as its own.  But because you are not of the world, nolonger one with it, but I have chosen, selected you out of the world, the world hates, detests you."

The following may further add some light copied from one of Ray's e-mail responces.

Dearest Ray
 
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
 
Thank you & bless you
Deborah


Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture:  [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the the nations in general.
 
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
 
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD"  (John 16:33).  What "world?"  Did He overcome China?  Japan?  Indolnesia?  No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
 
But in John 17:24 rea read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governemtns.
 
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace."  Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray

Unquote....

If I seemed unsympathetic or judgemental please forgive me. I see what a painful predicament you are in.

God be with you and bless you in all your needs.

Arcturus 
   

[mick24458]

Thanks for responding. It's good to hear the views of others while pondering what to do.
Prov 20:18  Plans succeed through good counsel; don't go to war without the advice of others.
I understand the concept of Babylon and the error of "Christian Religion" and ther eare many things that I just will not teach/preach as Christian doctrine because the scriptures are not clearly teaching them. My strruggle continues to be that I cannot label my church as "Babylon" becuase some doctrines that are held may be wrong. I suspect we all have error within out thinking and need to continually grapple and wrestle with God and His word. As I said, I love my church and think that the pastoral leadership is great. The central focus of all preaching and teaching is "Christ and Him crucified" and the is a strong culture of serving Jesus and the community in whci we live. So while I am beginning to question some of the long held orthodox doctrines on such things as hell (not a strong message in my church anyway), Trinitarianism, and other teaching on End-times, tithing and dominion theology, I still see a very real focus on the truth about Jesus.
If I honestly saw my church as "Babylon the Great Harlot", I'd be out in an instant.
Thanks for keeping me thinking.
Mick

[Deborah-Leigh]

Mick

I am not trying to convince or convert you. Only God can do that.

I have been very hurt by Mystery Babylon and I do not mean to preach down on you.... or on anyone for that matter whether or not they be a teacher of the Scriptures and know or do not know what the Bible says.

What the Church teaches however is not what the Bible says. For me, and only after I was dragged out....I read Rays Lake of Fire part X1 and THAT really helped me to see what is NOT, and what CAN NOT be taught in the Church. 

If God opens your eyes to the teaching in Ray's Lake of Fire Series you will be blessed. I hope sincerely that I do not sound condescending in any way. That is not what I mean to do. I mean to say only...to God be all the Glory and to His Son all our praise and thanks.

God bless you and bring you into His wisdom, knowledge and understanding

Arcturus