Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[hillsbororiver]

  Job 7 (Amplified Bible)
   

  1 IS THERE not an [appointed] warfare and hard labor to man upon earth? And are not his days like the days of a hireling?

  2 As a servant earnestly longs for the shade and the evening shadows, and as a hireling who looks for the reward of his work,

  3 So am I allotted months of futile [suffering], and [long] nights of misery are appointed to me.

  4 When I lie down I say, When shall I arise and the night be gone? And I am full of tossing to and fro till the dawning of the day.

  5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken and has become loathsome, and it closes up and breaks out afresh.

  6 My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.

  7 Oh, remember that my life is but wind (a puff, a breath, a sob); my eye shall see good no more.

  8 The eye of him who sees me shall see me no more; while your eyes are upon me, I shall be gone.

  9 As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he who goes down to Sheol (the place of the dead) shall come up no more.

 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

 11 Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul [O Lord]!

 12 Am I the sea, or the sea monster, that You set a watch over me?

 13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint,

 14 Then You scare me with dreams and terrify me through visions,

 15 So that I would choose strangling and death rather than these my bones.

 16 I loathe my life; I would not live forever. Let me alone, for my days are a breath (futility).

 17 What is man that You should magnify him and think him important? And that You should set Your mind upon him?(A)

 18 And that You should visit him every morning and try him every moment?

 19 How long will Your [plaguing] glance not look away from me, nor You let me alone till I swallow my spittle?

 20 If I have sinned, what [harm] have I done You, O You Watcher and Keeper of men? Why have You set me as a mark for You, so that I am a burden to myself [and You]?

 21 And why do You not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now shall I lie down in the dust; and [even if] You will seek me diligently, [it will be too late, for] I shall not be.

Not feeling like this presently but Brothers and Sisters I can feel real empathy for and relate to where Job is coming from here. How about you?

His Peace and Wisdom to all,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Here is the same chapter in "The Message" Version, before the Lord revealed more and more of Himself to me, I had days where I felt very much as Job did;

Job 7

"There's Nothing to My Life"

 1-6 "Human life is a struggle, isn't it? It's a life sentence to hard labor.
Like field hands longing for quitting time
   and working stiffs with nothing to hope for but payday,
I'm given a life that meanders and goes nowhere—
   months of aimlessness, nights of misery!
I go to bed and think, 'How long till I can get up?'
   I toss and turn as the night drags on—and I'm fed up!
I'm covered with maggots and scabs.
   My skin gets scaly and hard, then oozes with pus.
My days come and go swifter than the click of knitting needles,
   and then the yarn runs out—an unfinished life!

 7-10 "God, don't forget that I'm only a puff of air!
   These eyes have had their last look at goodness.
And your eyes have seen the last of me;
   even while you're looking, there'll be nothing left to look at.
When a cloud evaporates, it's gone for good;
   those who go to the grave never come back.
They don't return to visit their families;
   never again will friends drop in for coffee.

 11-16 "And so I'm not keeping one bit of this quiet,
   I'm laying it all out on the table;
   my complaining to high heaven is bitter, but honest.
Are you going to put a muzzle on me,
   the way you quiet the sea and still the storm?
If I say, 'I'm going to bed, then I'll feel better.
   A little nap will lift my spirits,'
You come and so scare me with nightmares
   and frighten me with ghosts
That I'd rather strangle in the bedclothes
   than face this kind of life any longer.
I hate this life! Who needs any more of this?
   Let me alone! There's nothing to my life—it's nothing
      but smoke.

 17-21 "What are mortals anyway, that you bother with them,
   that you even give them the time of day?
That you check up on them every morning,
   looking in on them to see how they're doing?
Let up on me, will you?
   Can't you even let me spit in peace?
Even suppose I'd sinned—how would that hurt you?
   You're responsible for every human being.
Don't you have better things to do than pick on me?
   Why make a federal case out of me?
Why don't you just forgive my sins
   and start me off with a clean slate?
The way things are going, I'll soon be dead.
   You'll look high and low, but I won't be around."

Reading this gives me more empathy for unbelievers and those who really have not been blessed with a relationship with Him as yet, isn't this what is going on in their heart of hearts in moments of despair or during rough times?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[orion77]

(Job 7:20)  I have sinned; what do I do to You, O Watcher of man? Why have You set me as a target for You so that I am a burden on myself?

(Job 7:21)  And why do You not lift up my transgression, and make my iniquity pass away? For now I shall lie down in the dust, and You shall seek me; but I will not be.


Hello Joe, these last two verses are great when tied into others in the NT.  For example, death and baptism, its not I who live but Christ in me, a new creation, born again...

That is the real good news Christ brought to us.   

God bless,

Gary

[MG]

I live Job's words every day and I know it is God that brought me to this place. It is my relationship with God that brought me here. I would fall into despair if I thought I felt like this because I was an unbeliever or had no relationship with God. Ray's words were comforting when he said we are here to die and being saved is the hardest thing that any of us will ever have to do.

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.

I've often thought that the story of Job is a parable of what we all must go through. Then I have fear sometimes that I've been led down this path through deception. When I left the church my Pastor told me that my belief would lead me to despair and those words haunt me sometimes. I pray that God protects all of us from deception.

Job's restoration gives me hope.
Philippians 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Love to all,
MG






 
 

[brothertoall]

Joe what an excellent thread. I have been through some very trying times and I too have thought when will it end. If not for the faith of Christ(His faith not mine) and His strength I would not have made it on my own.

 It is funny that when I was in the church it was easy to be mad at God and turn away from Him angry and feeling He was just out to get me. I now have the understanding that He has so mercifully given me and I no longer get angry but ask why and then seek His help and understanding of His will for my life.

bobby

[joyful1]

MG...amen to that!
I have good days and then I have bad days...and when they're bad?...they're very, very bad! I feel like Job and have no hope...I cry out to God and hide from my family and try the best that I can to keep from going out of my mind....I know that He is there....I think that is what gives me the freedom to tell Him everything! and as well, I know that He is the ONLY one who REALLY understands everything!!

I feel as though, God waits for me to get it all out of my system, like a loving father would do...and when I've no strength left in me to fight Him any longer, He sends a gentle breeze in the tops of the trees outside my window...or lets the rain begin to fall on the back deck....a flicker of light on the river will catch my eye ...or maybe the shadows of falling leaves....whatever....and that's my cue....to sit  still...and be quiet...and LISTEN! Hearing His voice is the beginning of a very good day! Why do we ever try to start it off any other way, I ask you? 
joyce

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe

You ask...Brothers and Sisters I can feel real empathy for and relate to where Job is coming from here. How about you?

What is revealing here is this......your post in Testimonies....quote...... Re: God's will and your life
« Reply #16 on: Today at 07:39:56 PM »   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Truthseeker,

................. I have been there, but in my case it was self inflicted, He turned it into an incredible blessing. A few years back (when I was in my early 40's) I made a series of boneheaded decisions that cost me my job as Southeastern U.S. Regional Sales Managmulti faceted scourging, including courts, jail, probation officers, loss of a drivers license, etc.

Anyway, little did I realize nor would I have believed it at the time but the Lord was leading me right there and through all these things for an earthly situation much improved over my former "Prestige Job" and ultimately a spiritual situation that I had absolutely no idea even existed.

As I had done in previous times of self induced misery I took out my bible, dusted it off and began reading, looking for comfort and hope, I remember Job and the story of Joseph as being particularly relevant to my situation although to me it seemed that these two were REALLY being led of the Lord to a greater understanding and prominance whereas I believed it was my own "free will" which got me to this desperate place. Most everything I read went miles over my (carnal) head. .................................

Pain is not some accademic exercise. It is a real life experience and it can not be understood by reading about someone else's pain. It can only resonate if you have suffered.

Thinking about this more has led me to see that there are different forms of pain.  As we are heading into a storm,  fear can take hold on us and  torment us like shown by  the strain that the Disciples felt in the boat as Jesus slept. Another form of pain is expressed in Ecclesiastes days of seeming futility and emptyness and what about Rev 2 : 10....the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days, be loyally faithful unto death, even if you must die for it and I will give you the crown of life.

For me a broken heart is wider and can hold more because it is  brused open and flogged soft." Harden not your hearts....."....but is it us who does this work of faithfullness....are we capable of even desiring it? Do we seek or desire to be bound for the furnace that often is set seven times hotter.....it is frightening and only God can guide us through the experience of being trained into brokeness and humbled out and away from our dependence on self. This  yields the fruit of His compassion and understanding and absence of arrogance and self will and this handiwork is a work only of God for we are too poor to perform it and too weak to desire it.

You write...Reading this gives me more empathy for unbelievers and those who really have not been blessed with a relationship with Him as yet,......This is soul pain....

The different kinds of pain.........being on the boat in a storm and Jesus is asleep,..... going into the fire hands bound like Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, or..... what about King Nebuchadnezzar who lost his kingdom and went mad and insane and experienced having a heart of a beast?...or Jonah being thrown overboard!....I think if we were to list the different kinds of agony listed in the Scriptures I do believe it will reveal that every conceavable kind of pain was for- known by God and shows up in the many testimonies of the characters in the Scriptures. But how can this help us if we do not see Gods plan and know His will? Without seeing Gods plan and will I believe  pain is exterior to us and remote and only touches us if it hurts us directly. This does not help at all. This creates monstors like Hitler. Remove knowing or understanding Gods will and plans and ways and Spirit and you have a beast. But God is wise. Very wise.

Jesus said, be anxious for nothing....not because we can achieve being anxious for nothing by ourselves but because this is the state of soul promised to us as a consequence of His work within us.  The Free Will articles by Ray, shine  on this truth. That there is no free will opens the gate to understanding  that by consequence of revelation....God inspired and God given...... sets free from worry and anxiety and pain. This Godly freedom does not lead to frivolity, or triviality over suffering and pain, but rather to endurance, understanding and compassion. These things are not to be easily grasped at,  but are brought into our souls through the handy work of God Himself.

What a hopeless helpless situation to not be untied, mercifully released or delivered out of  agony and pain. Christ's ressurection is the sequal to His death and pain and suffering and this is for us too who are called to be raised up in His image. This process is not easy to experience and much less easy  to comprehend for those who do not hold to the fact that God is Sovereign.

What a trial to be, at God's hand, to be turned into a beast or into beastly circumstances.

 Ray's LOF part 15. part D  I quote....."…Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a BEAST’S HEART BE GIVEN UNTO HIM: and let seven times pass over him" (Dan. 4:16).

King Nebuchadnezzar’s heart was turned into that of a beast, and Prov. 23:7 tells us:

"For as he thinks in his HEART, SO IS HE..."

And God calls us all "beasts"

"I said in my heart concerning the estate of the sons of man, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves ARE BEASTS" (Ecc. 3:18).

What was it the king of Babylon had to learn? What was it he believed to be true, that God says is not true, and therefore man must repent of?

What Nebuchadnezzar believed:

"The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY POWER, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?" (Dan. 4:30).

What God showed him to be the real truth:

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE can stay [restrain] His hand..." (Dan. 4:35).

Nebuchadnezzar said that He did things by his own power for his own honour and majesty. Is this possible. Can any man do such things by his own power of will? No, "NONE" God’s Word states. On the other hand, does God always do according to HIS WILL among all the inhabitants of the earth? Yes. Do any inhabitants of the earth have the power of will to thwart God’s will? "NONE" God’s word states.

Now then, Does God say that He, "...WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4)? ..............unquote

The fact that God is working all is a comfort. It is a powerful testimony of faith.

Just look at this testimony from a Newbie on the Forum: Re: Unequally yoked believers
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 05:59:19 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Paula,


...........Today I discovered I have Prostate Cancer and I have great peace that this too is part of God's plan. And since God is good and his plan is perfect, all I have to do is trust in him and rest in his plan. Whew, thank God. If I were hung up on my carnal life I would be freaking out but I am not. But I digress, I see the bigger picture...............


If this kind of story doesn't tear at heart strings pulling the fabric of our being to open up more to God then what can and what will.....God can and God will.....This is exactly what we are called to be and become.....Godly....in His image....His way not our way. His way causes us to be able through His strenght to be calm in the storm. Faithful enough to be bound and thrown into the fire, and blessed enough to be made mad only to come out the other end of the trial and say....

Dan 4 :  34 And at the end of the days, seven years, I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up my eyes to heaven and my understanding and the right use of my mind returned to me; and I blessed the Most High God and I praised and honored and glorified Him....

Hab 3 : 17...Though the fig tree does not blossom and there is no fruit on the vines, though the product of the olive fails and the fields yield no food, though the flock is cut off from the fold and there are no cattle in the stalls, Yet I will rejoice in the Lord.....

Habakkuk knew something. God alone revealed it to him....Hab 2 : 2,3 And the Lord answered me and said, Write the vision....3 for the vision is for an appointed time.....

Habakkuk got it. He knew it and he was set free of circumstances of pain and suffering. Paul knew it too. What he knew gave him courage to press forward towards his own death that went against the desire and advice of his fellowship. Job did not know but found out.  We are here now in the appointed time as prophesied in the scriptures that offer  promises that are Christ's alone to give to us.

I believe that once the inner core of our suffering is matured, then God gives us recogniton of His vision... the vision and the source of Pauls endurance and Habakkuks joy. ......

For me...this vision is.... there is NO FREE WILL...the closer I am moved and caused to approach this reveleation, the closer I connect with the particular fruit of His Spriti, namely Peace.  Every other way, every other story and every other sermon for me....is only crumbs from the table of our King. For me the call is to understand, to comprehend and to acknowlege that God alone is God, He is Sovereign and is performing all in accordance to His plan and Will.  In this, there is great comfort.

He is causing all to happen exactly as it is meant to happen.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[joyful1]

Joe and Acturus--
Along the same lines.... it occured to me this morning that God took the blame for us by creating evil.

Matthew 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; ..."

Matthew 18:7 "... For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!"

EVIL MUST BE, MUST COME! Why? Maybe to train us with....I don't know....maybe simply because  God says so! And His ways are higher.  We can speculate all day long why--but in the end--we cannot comprehend it all....of that I am sure! Still...the universe would not function without EVIL...it MUST be!!

But.... if God had simply "allowed" Adam and Eve to "invent" sin on their own....then indeed....Adam and Eve would be totally responsible for all the evil in the world....a burden that they were unable to bear! God loves us too much to let us take on something that we simply cannot handle...every loving father would be this way!

So God created EVIL. AND... He took the blame for it....even though He is Holy and without sin! AMAZING!!

What do you guys think about this reasoning.....am I off track here?
Joyce

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joyce

I am quoting Ray here and apologize that I did not keep the e-mail reference date for you. The e-mail is titled ACCOUNTABLE and the first one is from e-mails page 5.

Here is what Ray wrote....


God is in control of EVERYTHING - EVERY THING!!!.....we are considerable more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that Gode controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CONNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS,  that the response of the tongue IF FROM THE ETERNAL that  ALL IS OF GOD. that God is operating ALL  according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL, that HE HIMSELF is the CREATOR OF EVIL.....one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw (Greek, drag) him to Christ."....We have been so brainwashed that it is difficult to believe God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Yet Churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." ....you're responsible for going to hell, or it's your responsibility to accept Christ....

Men shall be rendering an account...Matt 12:36....all of us shall be giving account....Rom 14:11-12

God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY....He holds man accountable. Man is accountable because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself". And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate himout of this dilemma."

So to rephrase your question.....God took the blame...I would prefer to see this as God assumes full RESPONSIBILITY....not so much blame because blame means ...something that is wrong or deserving censure, culpability. An expression of condemnation, reproof....to be at fault or  ...to accuse...for the failure...to find fault with. Compare responsible or responsibility....having control or authority over....involving decision ...being the agent or CAUSE of some action....the state or position ...the ability or authority to act or decide on one's own (sovereignty) without supervision....Collins English Dictionary....

Peace to you

Arcturus....

[Patrick]

Joyce, my neighbors now have a donkey. I used to hear the birds first thing in the morning. Now it seems even the birds wait to hear the donkey before they get up. I love it.

Great stuff.

[MG]

I think that Job's words did show that he knew that God was Sovereign. He lost his children in a tragic death. He lost his possesions at the hand of an enemy. He lost all his servents at the hand of an enemy. He lost his reputation and he lost his health in one day.

Job 1
20 Then Job arose, and rent his robe, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped;
21 and he said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.
22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job did not blame the enemy or the evil one or anyone else. He knew it was God that caused this evil to come upon him. The carnal man rose up in defense of itself within Job. It is my experience that the carnal will always rise up against God. It cannot subject itself to God nor does it want to. The carnal man cannot learn. It must die and it dies kicking and screaming. It spits in God's face as it dies. We cannot tame that beast. Only the refiners fire can burn it away. It is the suffering in my life that brings my carnality to the light.

When I watch my grandson suffer so much I feel anger within. God why do you cause so much suffering with my grandson. Can't you at least let him have a childhood. He is only 12 and has suffered for years. He lies in bed with severe headaches every day. He broke his wrist last month and broke his foot this month. He cries pleading to be normal. All he wants to do is play and go to school and have friends. My heart breaks and I defy you in anger. My mind wants to subject to your will in his life. My evil heart cries out in anger and desperation. Only you can burn off that evil within my heart that opposes your will. I repent of that part of me which is not in subjection. Only you can put it in subjection. Through suffering myself I will no longer live in the will of man, but in the will of God. Expose every part of me that is not in subjection to your will.

Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.

 16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.

 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

 19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.

 20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

 21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.

 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

 24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[joyful1]

Patrick-- you LIKE listening to a donkey?? what???

MG--
do you find that the struggle for yourself is hard enough...but when a child that you feel responsible for is involved....its even harder?? I know that we must lean on Him for our understanding...but I know the  struggle that you feel....having a special needs son myself, that suffers so much. God be with you and your grandson today...in a special way!
much love,
Joyce

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe and MG

The link between Job 7 and Romans 7 was a gift to me.

I sent a PM to Kat today and while writting it, I was reminded of notes I took regarding the Scripture Job 7. I returned to my notes where I found something quite interesting. In the one year I noted in blue ink that Job 7 is what God does. In the following year I added to this observation in red ink that this is what God does not do!  God is love. 

Job 7...What God does not do! God is Love.

And now since being taught about Absolute v's Relative   I see that Job 7 is relative to mans thinking and experience and that God is love is absolute! 

From Romans 7 MG vs 10..And the very legal ordinance which was designed and intended to bring life actually proved to mean to me death.

Put this scripture together with Gen 3 : 3...Ie...The command not to eat from the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden.

Then with Romans 7 : 11  For sin, seizing the opportunity and getting a hold on me from the commandment, beguiled and entrapped and cheated me, and using it as a weapon, killed me. 

Put this scripture together with 1 cor 15 : 56 The strength of sin is the law....

And now put this together with Rom 7 :  13....so we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commandment for its own evil purposes.

...... or as the teaching to us through Ray points out in Absoute v/s Relative in GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS

A Sermon by:

James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.

A Critique by:  L. Ray Smith


RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 

THE RELATIVE:
 THE ABSOLUTE:
 
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)

 

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Joe I think this is what Job did. I think Job 7 shows and testifies to Job seeing God in the RELATIVE sence and not the ABSOLUTE. 

God corrected Job!....then blessed him! Paul identified both Relative and Absolute. Rom 7.  We are called to see in the Absolute only!.....Called to be Manifested Sons and Daughters of God......Surely the manifested Sons and Daughters of God see God only in Absolute terms?

Arcturus   

[hillsbororiver]

Arcturus,

Once again you put some very interesting observations on the table. I see Job looking at God with carnal eyes (human understanding) as we all do at first, when our eyes are opened by His Spirit we see Him in an entirely new Light.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Joe

Just a thought....

Brothers and Sisters......Relative.....as with human thinking.

Sons and Daughters....Absolute and in God's Will.

What do you think?  This also ties up with the Elect somehow too!

Peace to you
Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Arcturus,

You are on a roll!

That is fantastic, you just gave me an EUREKA! moment, yes, I see that, in the world as men and woman, in the church as brothers and sisters, in His Kingdom as Sons and Daughters. Each step closer, as we grow in our One on one journey with Him together.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

AMEN!  GLORY GLORY AMEN!

  and Eureka back to me Amen!


Peace and joy to you
 

[hughbee40]

hello everyone
  At times I question my faith.  To me it all seems so simple.  Live your life as God has created you, learn to hear Him and do His will which I am trying to do, yet why do I suffer so?  I have been blessed with so many wonderful things (my wife and little girls) yet I am not sure I have forgiven God for all of the failures in my life and feel that He is punishing me for it.  I have become afraid to try anything new other than my job as an over the road truck driver for fear of God destroying it as He has done so many times before.  There are times when I feel Him so very close to me and I can literally hear Him say to me(in spirit) everything is OK, you are one of my beloved, yet there are other times when I feel completely alone.  I have attended sporadically a small baptist church, but have grown to the point where I can no longer attend because of the nonsense the pastor spews each week.  It seems like he is talking out of both sides of his mouth at times.  I truly feel that he is a good person committed to God, yet what he says each week is diametrically opposed to what I believe.  Sometimes I feel that I am losing my mind.  I am in a world full of strangers.  Everywhere I look, I find people who I have nothing in common with (spiritually).  The exception are people whom the church labels as sinners and losers.  I have found the greatest wisdom from simple truck drivers who chase truck stop whores and brag about their three day drinking binges when they have a few days off.  I feel like Job at times.  The only difference is that I feel stuck in a perpetual suffering phase.  When will the restoration come?  All of you seem to be good people seeking answers like my self.  While my submissions have no structure or bible references, I hope you all will understand that everything I write is straight from the heart.  If anyone has insight or relative experience, I would be grateful for that input.  While I may sound bitter, I am not.  I am at best confused.  I hope that He has led me to this forum for answers and am eagerly awaiting responses that will affirm that hope.

best regards to all
Hughbee40 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Hughbee40

Just a few thoughts......

hello everyone

At times I question my faith.

That is good. It is not wise to be sure of our faith. It is a gift and not something to be taken for granted.

To me it all seems so simple.  Live your life as God has created you, learn to hear Him and do His will which I am trying to do, yet why do I suffer so?

Suffering is a sign of faith. Psalm 73 : 12 Behold these are the ungodly, who always prosper and are at ease in the world; they increase in riches.

I have been blessed with so many wonderful things (my wife and little girls) yet I am not sure I have forgiven God for all of the failures in my life and feel that He is punishing me for it.  I have become afraid to try anything new other than my job as an over the road truck driver for fear of God destroying it as He has done so many times before.

In everything God knows what is best for us. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He is not about to cause you to fail and then punish you for it. God is a God of love. If you fail, He is the one who helps you up. If you fall, He is the one who gives you the strength to continue. If you fear, He is the one to give you the courage to cry for help and to turn to  Him.

There are times when I feel Him so very close to me and I can literally hear Him say to me(in spirit) everything is OK, you are one of my beloved, yet there are other times when I feel completely alone.

This is simply part of the process of learning that despite what we feel, His word is true. Our feelings are not the yardsticks for gauging God’s truths.  Whether we feel His presence or not, He is the author of our circumstances through which He has designed for us to be made into the image of Christ. This process is not very comfortable and is in fact extremely difficult on us but it is one that produces the fruit of His Spirit in us and His discernment. Just look at what you say in your post for the evidence of what I see….

I have attended sporadically a small baptist church, but have grown to the point where I can no longer attend because of the nonsense the pastor spews each week.  It seems like he is talking out of both sides of his mouth at times.  I truly feel that he is a good person committed to God, yet what he says each week is diametrically opposed to what I believe.  Sometimes I feel that I am losing my mind.  I am in a world full of strangers.  Everywhere I look, I find people who I have nothing in common with (spiritually).  The exception is people whom the church labels as sinners and losers.  I have found the greatest wisdom from simple truck drivers who chase truck stop whores and brag about their three day drinking binges when they have a few days off.  I feel like Job at times.  The only difference is that I feel stuck in a perpetual suffering phase.  When will the restoration come?  All of you seem to be good people seeking answers like my self.  

What you express here is a rare insight.  Many are sincerely deceived and other’s are entering God’s Kingdom ahead of them. Matt 23 : 12 Whosoever exalts himself with haughtiness and empty pride, shall be humbled, brought low, and whoever humbles himself, whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly shall be raised to honour.

While my submissions have no structure or bible references, I hope you all will understand that everything I write is straight from the heart.  If anyone has insight or relative experience, I would be grateful for that input.  While I may sound bitter, I am not.  I am at best confused.  I hope that He has led me to this forum for answers and am eagerly awaiting responses that will affirm that hope.

best regards to all

You are a brother.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

hello everyone
  At times I question my faith.  To me it all seems so simple.  Live your life as God has created you, learn to hear Him and do His will which I am trying to do, yet why do I suffer so?  I have been blessed with so many wonderful things (my wife and little girls) yet I am not sure I have forgiven God for all of the failures in my life and feel that He is punishing me for it.  I have become afraid to try anything new other than my job as an over the road truck driver for fear of God destroying it as He has done so many times before.  There are times when I feel Him so very close to me and I can literally hear Him say to me(in spirit) everything is OK, you are one of my beloved, yet there are other times when I feel completely alone.  I have attended sporadically a small baptist church, but have grown to the point where I can no longer attend because of the nonsense the pastor spews each week.  It seems like he is talking out of both sides of his mouth at times.  I truly feel that he is a good person committed to God, yet what he says each week is diametrically opposed to what I believe.  Sometimes I feel that I am losing my mind.  I am in a world full of strangers.  Everywhere I look, I find people who I have nothing in common with (spiritually).  The exception are people whom the church labels as sinners and losers.  I have found the greatest wisdom from simple truck drivers who chase truck stop whores and brag about their three day drinking binges when they have a few days off.  I feel like Job at times.  The only difference is that I feel stuck in a perpetual suffering phase.  When will the restoration come?  All of you seem to be good people seeking answers like my self.  While my submissions have no structure or bible references, I hope you all will understand that everything I write is straight from the heart.  If anyone has insight or relative experience, I would be grateful for that input.  While I may sound bitter, I am not.  I am at best confused.  I hope that He has led me to this forum for answers and am eagerly awaiting responses that will affirm that hope.

best regards to all
Hughbee40 

You have plenty of company Brother! So many of our Sisters and Brothers here in the Forum have had similiar feelings and experiences, the Old Testament is full of stories where the oldtime Patriarchs and Prophets were put to severe testing, chastising, refinement, etc.

This is a verse that gets quoted alot here; 

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

As well as;

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ******** and not sons.

We discussed this a while back in these 2 threads, (and many others);

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2010.0.html

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2027.0.html

Here is a portion of Ray's Lake of Fire Part VI that addresses the subject too, (many of his articles do as well). Read the entire article here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

THE LIFE OF A BELIEVER

Let’s see again just what is involved in living the live of a believer:

"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3;3). Notice that Eph. 2:10 says that we are "created IN Christ." Something new happens when we are "IN" Christ. There is a NEW birth and there is a NEW creation, "Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE [Gk: creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17). Albeit, this new creation has its perils as we will see in the next verse.

"Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus [as a new and different creature] SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION." (II Tim. 3:12). This is not just a possibility; it is an absolute PROMISE.

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through MUCH TRIBULATION [pressure, afflictions] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).

"And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My Son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS [Prov. 13:24] AND SCOURGES [see I Pet. 5:9] EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you ********, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8). "Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire shall try EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3;13).

"Fear NONE of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you a CROWN OF LIFE" (Rev. 2:10). "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE [eternal, immortal life]" (Rev. 2:7), "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11), "And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give POWER OVER THE NATIONS" (Rev. 2;26), "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment [righteousness] and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life [Christ is the book of life] but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Rev. 3:5), "Him that overcomes will I make a PILLAR [a main and vital support in the very government of Almighty God] IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD…" (Rev. 3:12), "To him that overcomes will I grant to SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE, even as I also overcame [see John 16:33], and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

There we have a very brief overview of the life of a believer. Is it not obvious that the life of a believer consists of a whole lot more than just "believing" that Jesus is the Christ? God has bigger plans for the human race than just "saving" them. God can "save" chickens, but God doesn’t want chickens for sons! God wants sons that are PERFECT as He is perfect! Wouldn’t you all agree that becoming perfect might just require a whole lot more than singing gospel music once a week? Perfection requires many things that only God can perform in our lives. We are, after all, His workmanship, His achievement. Having ALL OUR WORKS tried in the fire of His Holy Spirit is no small part of becoming perfect.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe