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Author Topic: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?  (Read 14658 times)

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Dustin

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Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« on: November 15, 2006, 12:38:33 AM »

Hi,

Does anyone know if Ray has any teachings on this subject?  I am trying to gather with people who have been given a good understanding on this issue.

God Bless
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Kat

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 01:16:48 AM »

Hi Dustin,

Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.


Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallow Ray,

I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?

What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church?  Take consideration of the following scriptures:

   1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
   2. Galatians 3:27-28

Regards,

George


Dear George:

I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34?  If it does, the why would Paul have written it?

The answer is quote simple:

"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female."  But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?

We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation.  However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc.  I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority.  I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.

God be with you,

Ray


 Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach.  That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.

 
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST."  (Gal. 2:27-28).  But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female.  If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine.  Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
 
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God"  (I Cor. 11:3).  This statement is not "custom and tradition.
 
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
 
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam"  and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
 
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?"  "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us:  "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty"  (II Cor. 6:18).
 
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
 
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Madeline

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 06:05:07 PM »

But what about women teaching sunday school? Didn't Jesus say in the Great commision to preach the Gospel to all people? Doesn't this apply to all christians male and female? Not saying that a woman should be a Pastor, but is it unbiblical for a woman to teach in general?

Love,
Madeline
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eggi

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 07:24:42 PM »

In reply to Madeline,

I would say it's not unbiblical for women to teach:

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Titus 2:4-5 KJV)

The older women can guide/or teach younger women, if this is needed. Women and men have different roles in this world, but in spirit they are one:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28 KJV)

However, it is clear that Paul is saying that when there is a gathering, the women should not teach:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Co 14:34 KJV)

Women can prophesy and spread the Gospel elsewhere:

And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. (Act 21:9 KJV)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (Acts 2:17-18 KJV)


Now I'm going slightly off topic here, but this is something that has to do with the oneness which should be in the relationship between men and women, as mentioned above. Often men forget that they too have to be servants of their wives. Men think that this verse takes care of everything:

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23 KJV)


This is often used as an excuse for the man to just leave all the housework to the wife, since he is the head of the wife. This is how the head should be:

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luk 22:25-26 KJV)


But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mat 20:25-28 KJV)


Seems like the head position comes with a huge responsibility, a responsibility to serve and sacrifice. In those cases I think a Christian wife would willingly:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (Eph 5:22 KJV)

The marriage can be kept in perfect balance by Jesus Christ, when both man and wife follow His example of serving and loving.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 07:45:00 PM by eggi »
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Layla

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 11:37:07 PM »

The following is a very good word by a brother who I only know as Livelystone (Doug).  I hope it helps.

Quote
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

Greetings To All

The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations. (Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth. In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will?

However I believe in strict adherence to the laws for determining truth and when I look for a second witness that states that a “woman should not teach” I find some problems finding a second witness. When we look for another scripture that speaks against a woman teaching we find one but it is directed against a woman who is evil and not qualified to teach.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

This verse certainly does nothing to keep a good woman from teaching so we need to look further. In the 5th chapter of 1st Timothy we find a lot said about woman in the church not being considered worthy of ministering the things of God. However once again we see that these unqualified woman have grown weak in their faith and “some have already turned aside after Satan”. Once again we are still lacking a reason for a woman of God to be denied the right to teach God’s Word

In 1st Tim 2 there is a reference in verse 13 to Eve who bowed in subjection to Satan just as in the 5th chapter so I question the quality of this woman that is to be silent rather than her gender. Eve is not the woman who represents the church and who is at enmity (an enemy) with Satan. Eve was not at enmity with Satan because she was in compliance with him and was part of the transgression.

Then there is another scripture to consider (amongst others) before one states that a woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures because of her gender.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing.

So in conclusion there are no two witnesses that say a woman who is qualified should not teach, consequently a woman cannot lawfully be denied the pulpit Contrary to one thinking that there are two lawful witnesses that deny woman the right to teach, the scriptures show there is no difference between a man or a woman in Christ as they are both of Him and considered equal.

There is one big however though. As Paul says some things may be lawful but are not expedient to pursue and this may apply here in certain circumstances. If a woman preaching is a problem because she is a woman, then she should either preach somewhere else or refrain from doing so where she is. Plus she had might as well go somewhere where she will be appreciated.

Now all of the above proves that there is no scriptural mandate against woman teaching or holding positions of authority in the church because of the lack of witnesses in the scriptures. However since on the surface (and for the unlearned) there appears to be so, we need to consider why this is so. Once again I urge you to look deeper and consider the spirit/ soul implication that is at the heart of the message seemingly indicating that woman should be forbidden to teach.

God is Spirit. His word is spirit and we need to stop thinking in the natural if we are to move forward in our understanding. With all the spiritual references in the Bible it amazes me that “qualified teachers” look for everything in the natural. Man is a spirit (aka image of God) within an earth suit and when he is given a soul (spiritual body) in the likeness of God, then God’s purpose for His Creation will be complete and the “Mystery of Godliness” will have been fulfilled within man.

Peace and Blessings
Doug.

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Dustin

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 12:42:41 AM »

Quote
God is Spirit. His word is spirit



Very good!


I received this response from a very Spiritual lady:

(Rom 7:2) For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband.  I think that "woman" that has a husband is us (the Bride) while we are in the church (body of Christ)!  We are bound by the "law" of the 'husband', the churches.

(Rom 7:3) So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.  When does our husband die?  When the 'churches' cast us out!  They cast us out because we are being "cut out" of the body having liberty in the 'spirit'  no longer under the "law"!  We (the Bride) is then  joined to ANOTHER MAN!   I am seeing that the body of Christ (church) represents 'Christ in the flesh' and under NT law!  I see the OTHER MAN represents Christ the bridegroom in the spirit, no more law!

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.  There it is!  We are made dead to the law, it says 'through' the body of Christ - I see that as taken through or passed through the body of Christ!  All the elect come through the church!  The 'bride' is joined to ANOTHER, who is that?  That's Christ who was raised from the dead, the bridegroom no longer has flesh and physical order  - he is all "spirit" after he died and was raised!

(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.  Don't the churches always bring forth fruit onto death?  Do they ever keep all the laws and commandments?  Not likely!

(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.  The law 'holds us' us back!  The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you.  The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib".  The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart!  The body would miss such a part.
 





As men we can't let this be an idol of the heart. We know that only the Spirit can teach and give eyes to see this.

God Bless
__
Gal 5:18  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 02:17:30 PM »

I enjoy the Scriptural balance you strike Eggi.

Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind.  In particular…. quote:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..


For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:

GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by: James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by:  L. Ray Smith
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."…….unquote
Rays observation and the discussion on this thread points me to the following scriptures:

2 Cor 6 : 17,18  So, come out  from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor.  18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman?  Because there is  order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills,  frustrations, pride,  hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman.  There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God. 

1 Peter 3 : 6  It was thus that Sarah obeyed Abraham, following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by calling him lord, master, leader, authority, And you are now her true daughter if you do right………..
Both Jezebel and Sarah took things into their own hands with dire consequences for both.  Dogs ate Jezebel and Sarah suffered to be caused to facilitate the birth of the Nation of children without promise.
Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it  “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…

Dustin, I enjoyed your view point.

(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.  The law 'holds us' us back!  The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you.  The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib".  The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart!  The body would miss such a part.Unquote
…….. certainly the body would miss the head if it were to be beheaded!  For me Christ is the head of the body just as man is the head of the woman. I do not see this as subservience or devaluation of women into a lesser role of inferiority. Not at all.  I see it as design….the way God has made it to be.

For me the masculine (in men)  and feminine ( in woman) of our absolute and relative differences brings the fruit of Christ’s spirit into our hearts homes and marital relationships only as our differences cease from competing or fighting to rearrange, re-write  or alter the orderliness of Gods perfect design plan that shows the rules for male and female interaction in His Scriptures. The world’s wisdom that teaches men to be like woman and woman to be like man is foolishness for me. Where Jesus implored God to  ….let them be one as we are one…has vast ramifications for both male and female. Two men can not make one woman and no number of woman can make or equal  one man. Six apples will never be one peach and visa versa.

For me the head is to the body as God is to Christ. Our human, social issues of compliance and submission to God’s Divine design is challenged in male and female differences that come under pressure to merge or dissolve under trial and testing.  So the world tries to make out of men and women a proverbial fruit salad mix up mash up cocktail of errors. God’s trial and testing is avoided by the worlds adaptation to its own design and its own form of anarchy and darkness and permissive tolerance. By contrast, under trial and testing Christ proved faithful unto death.

Do woman seek to erase the authority of men and do men no longer wish to lead women? For me, a woman that has a husband who abdicates his authority is a Jezebel in the making. When men no longer lead and woman no longer submit it produces an atmosphere in which children will not be able to clearly identify their own sexual integrity because divine order is blurred. When we loose sight and direction under Gods divine order it brings dysfunction the likes of which homosexuality is only one result with frustrated woman and despairing men heading only for pitiful deaths in terminal relationships or worse still into the spirit of religion that closets and suppresses the deformation taking place deep in the soul realm. This for me can be likened to putting iron shoes on a baby and never removing them as the feet grow…or putting a clean white lace handkerchief over a gaping wide sewerage tank.

Likewise… A man who has a wife who is un submissive, who wants to lead and be the boss is a tormented man, and if not tormented then already defeated. A man who will not lead and a woman who will not submit is a travesty, a contradiction and a formula for disaster.……which is part of Gods plan to show us all that only HIS way can work….only Gods order and design for both man and woman has,  does and will ever work……..God’s plan is that we come to discover this through painful sometimes pitiful trials, errors, confusion, illusions, wrong thinking and deceptive idols of the heart.

The world is likewise in gross error right now….and this too is part of Gods plan, ahead of Gods correction, judgement and restoration to His way truth and life. God will, right every wrong and correct every corruption. Every crooked path will be straightened and every rocky place made plane.  No iron shoes, no sewerage tanks, no more death blows of crucifixion but resurrection into the victorious life of Jesus Christ,  Gods Son not daughter.

But who have believed?………….few even agree!…….and the world resists…......

Peace to you

Arcturus






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Dustin

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 08:36:47 PM »

I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.

Just ask your self these questions

  • Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
  • Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?

Gal 6:13  For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

Please receive in Love
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 08:54:54 PM »

I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.

Just ask your self these questions

  • Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
  • Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?

Gal 6:13  For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

Please receive in Love

Hi Dustin,

Jesus was the unchallenged leader in His congregation, during His ministry no man or woman was teaching Him.

I was at the Conference as was Kat who answered to this earlier in the thread, everyone received the same amount of love and respect, a woman's viewpoint or question was treated in the very same manner as a man's would be.

At our get together's during the Conference weekend we would fellowship informally between Ray's presentations and in the evenings with each other sometimes in groups that would be entirely made up of one gender or the other and sometimes mixed, there was no controlling authority.

I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.

When we are raised in our spiritual uncorruptable bodies and are changed, at that time we will no longer be male or female.

I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   
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rocky

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 09:31:39 PM »

I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.

I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   

here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul

1Co 7:29  Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,

or in more modern version

1Co 7:29  Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.

and

regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse


Rom 8:9  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 10:03:54 PM »

Hi Rocky,

Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.

In regard to what you wrote above;

Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.

We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?

John 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.



His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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eggi

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 08:01:41 AM »

This is a question I've been having for quite a time. Now it has been raised again, although indirectly.

hillsbororiver you state:

Quote
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.

I've long since discovered that divorce is an option:

The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Mat 19:3-9 KJV)


In my bible (Norwegian Bible) there is no good distinction between the words "porneia" (fornication) and "moichao" (adultery). It reads (translated into English) : But I say to you, that the one who separates from his wife, except for reasons of adultery, and marries another woman, commits adultery, and the one who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery. (Mat 19:9)

According to those words there seems to be NO thoughts behind this statement at all. Why would Christ say that the only valid reason for divorcing (or separating) is adultery, but then if you remarry you COMMIT ADULTERY again?

I thought this was the truth until God showed me that the pharisees are tempting Jesus with the question: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for EVERY reason? After all this was the law of Moses:

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.(Deu 24:1-2 KJV)

So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.

This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

rocky

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 10:57:54 AM »

I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.

I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   

here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul

1Co 7:29  Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,

or in more modern version

1Co 7:29  Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.

and

regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse


Rom 8:9  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;


I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women. 

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 11:15:57 AM »

So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.

This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
Quote

Hi eggi,

I am wondering how you come to the conclusion,
" So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know."

When it is plainly written;

Matthew 5:32 (King James)

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus is saying if you "put away" or divorce your spouse for any reason other than , fornication(adultery,unfaithfulness ) then you are committing adultery and putting others in the position of committing adultery.

It had been a common practice for men to "put away" their faithful wives only because they lost their youthful luster, they were not as pleasing to their eyes as they once had been. That was what He was speaking of, even though it was acceptable under Mosaic Law to divorce for any reason it was admonished against as being displeasing to the Lord in Malachi 2;


Mal 2:14  Yet ye say, Wherefore?,  Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Mal 2:15  And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

The ultimate authority on this would be between a believer and the Lord within, how He impresses their concience. There is no one size fits all answer or an earthly authority. If a husband or wife is sleeping around ignoring their responsibilities to the children, the household, the extended family, isn't that being unfaithful? If drugs, gambling, alcohol come before family obligations, is that also being unfaithful?

  
1Ti 5:8  But if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I hope this helps, His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:23:43 AM by hillsbororiver »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 11:19:02 AM »

I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.

I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   

here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul

1Co 7:29  Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,

or in more modern version

1Co 7:29  Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.

and

regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse


Rom 8:9  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;


I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women. 



Hello again Rocky,

Under Mosaic Law woman had virtually no rights at all, they were almost like livestock.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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brothertoall

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 03:10:58 PM »


Since we are on the subject of women teaching, maybe someone could help explain these verses.


1 Corinthians 14:33-35

 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:10-12


 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


bobby(bob)












« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 03:16:31 PM by brothertoall »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 03:22:33 PM »

Hi Bobby,

Kat answered this earlier in the thread with a couple of Ray's e-mails,

Hi Dustin,

Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.


Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallow Ray,

I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?

What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church?  Take consideration of the following scriptures:

   1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
   2. Galatians 3:27-28

Regards,

George


Dear George:

I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34?  If it does, the why would Paul have written it?

The answer is quote simple:

"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female."  But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?

We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation.  However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc.  I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority.  I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.

God be with you,

Ray


 Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach.  That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.

 
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST."  (Gal. 2:27-28).  But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female.  If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine.  Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
 
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God"  (I Cor. 11:3).  This statement is not "custom and tradition.
 
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
 
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam"  and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
 
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?"  "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us:  "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty"  (II Cor. 6:18).
 
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
 
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

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brothertoall

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 03:59:56 PM »

yes Joe I did read those emails and I just was having a memory block.

bobby
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 04:06:24 PM »

Hi Dustin and Bobby,

This might help.

To begin with let me quote you Dustin:

Just ask your self these questions
·   Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
·   Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?

Gal 6:13  For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.


Please receive in Love

These are good questions.

To respond:
Firstly lets look at what you what you could mean Dustin and Bobby when you say “church”……and in your case Dustin you ask……….”would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent ‘in the church?’

There are TWO Church’s.

These following excerpts are meant only to point this out. There is a paper that is even more specific about the fact that there are two churches and can be found elsewhere in Ray’s, The Lake of Fire series.  



The Lake of
Fire - Part XTHE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN


And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.

The Lake of Fire - PART VI  TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE

………….contrary to popular Christian tradition, Jesus did NOT say that He would build His church upon Peter. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Greek, petros, a piece of detached stone or rock], and upon THIS ROCK` [Greek, petra {a different kind of rock}, a mass of rock that cannot be moved as in Matt. 7:24 and 27:60, which is distinct from petros which is a smaller detached rock that can be moved] will I built MY CHURCH; and the gates of the unseen [hades] shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus named Simon, "Cephas"(Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas which is Chaldee):
"And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone" (John 1:42),
that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.
TAKE HEED HOW YOU BUILD
Constructing a building is a process that requires time and activity. Since God likens the building of His spiritual temple to the assembling of a physical building, then this process, likewise, requires time and activity. Time and activity is what we call living our lives. Now then, when does judgment begin at the building of this house of God? Answer:
"For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God…" (I Peter 4:17).
And so it clearly has already begun with the Apostles and New Testament Church nearly two thousand years ago. And it is still going on in the Church of God today, in every believer’s life, as he lives his life.
Therefore, Paul warns:
"But let every man take heed HOW he builds [his building’] thereupon" (I Cor. 3:10).
And so judgment is upon the building of God’s house as each individual believer is framed and fitted for the calling that God has for each individual. This judgment began in the days of the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord. It continued generation after generation down through the age until today when it yet continues. And it will continue still further until the entire harvest of first fruits is completed. Remember we already learned that if we would judge ourselves now, Paul said we would not be condemned with the world later (I Cor. 11:32).
It is while we are living and building that our works are being tried and judged BY FIRE according to HOW we are building. What fire? God’s fire. God’s "CONSUMING [spiritual] FIRE" (Heb. 12:29)! God is SPIRIT and likewise His fire is SPIRIT.
……………….unquote

My Point….There are TWO Churches.
So now… lets review your question Dustin….. Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
Here is how Jesus talked to the women from the Church of Satan.

Luke 23 : 27  And there  accompanied Jesus a great multitude of the people, including women who bewailed and lamented Him. 28. But Jesus, turning toward them, said, Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29. For behold, the days are coming during which they will say, Blessed, happy, fortunate, and to be envied are the barren and the wombs that have not borne, and the breasts that have never nursed babies! 30. Then they will begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us! And to the hills, Cover, conceal, hide us! 31. For if they do these things (bewailing and lamenting Him) when the timber is green, (Jesus was only 33 years old ) what will happen when it is dry? (Jesus is risen. He is neither wet nor green behind the ears.) What will He say …Depart from me you cursed, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels! Matt 25:41

The admonition is to us ALL and not just to you and I to…..Take care how you build YOUR house…..!

But WHO are the Daughters of Jerusalem?
 In which Church do they belong? Let’s see …………excerpt quote from

The Lake of Fire - PART VI

JERUSALEM IS FAR WORSE THAN THE VERY WORST
"Yet have you not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, YOU WERE CORRUPTED MORE THAN THEY IN ALL YOUR WAYS. As I live, says the Lord God, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as YOU [Jerusalem] HAVE DONE, you and your daughters" (Verses 47-48).
"Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins; but you have MULTIPLIED YOUR ABOMINATIONS MORE THAN THEY, and have justified your sisters in all YOUR ABOMINATIONS which you have done. You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that YOU HAVE COMMITTED MORE ABOMINABLE THAN THEY: they are MORE RIGHTEOUS [imagine God saying that Sodom is ‘more righteous’ than Jerusalem?] than you" (Verse 52).

Unquote…..

Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?

If the women  were in the Church of Satan….they would NOT be silent….. I believe Jesus would rebuke them in no uncertain terms! Like “Weep for yourselves…bear your own shame for your sins!…..”

If the women were in the Church of Christ, would Jesus silence them….….NO….because .they would be listening…..Luke 10 : 41 ….Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 There is need of only one, or but a few things, Mary has chosen the good portion, that which is to her advantage, which shall not be taken away from her.

You ask....Does any chrurch or group obey this ……..

There is not one human institution called Church that is obeying Christ or following Him. They are ALL in error and they are ALL CALLED to overcome the error of their ways. They are called to  Rev 2 : 5 Remember from what heights they have fallen and repent, change the inner man to meet God’s will and do the works they previously did when they first knew the Lord…..They are called  to vs.14. stop holding on to the doctrine of Balaam who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to entice them to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness, giving themselves up to sexual vice.(sexual vice here is not literal it is spiritual prostitution of Christ’s intimate and holy teachings  adulterated with doctrines, creeds, customs and traditions of man)  They are called to…vs 20 stop TOLERANCE OF THE WOMAN JEZEBEL, who calls herself a prophetess, claiming to be inspired and who is  TEACHING AND LEADING astray my servants and BEGUILING  them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols. (Food here is not literal. It is food as in commandments of God sacrificed to idols of man) These are the Churches that have a name and to which Jesus says Rev 3 : 1 …I know your record and what you are doing; you are supposed to be alive, but in reality you are dead. These are the Churches that say Rev 3 : 17 I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy and am in need of nothing…These are the Churches who do not realize and understand that they are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. These  Churches  are called to repent and overcome and to all this Christ says : Rev 3 : 22 He who is able to hear, let him LISTEN to and HEED what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES.

So : Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment…..

No church (as in man made institution) obeys….I believe that the “group” who are like-minded with Christ’s mind, both LISTEN to and HEED the Spirit of God……..but this group is not The Church....

It is a common failing to believe certain doctrines because others do. This is a manifestly fruitful cause of error. Many people have believed and sincerely taught error and many still do. Churches are devoted to teaching error. Acts 26:9 I myself was once persuaded that it was my duty to do many things contrary to and in defiance of the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

As for you, be not mis-led to worship, follow or believe the traditions and creeds of men. 2 Tim 3:15 The Scriptures (not the Churches)  are able to make wise unto salvation, through faith, which is in Christ Jesus alone…

You quote: Gal 6:13  For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

The scriptures do not contradict.  Perhaps you will enjoy the Amplified translation : For even the Jews themselves do not really keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh, your subjection to EXTERNAL RITES….(man made doctrines, false beliefs, ungodly behaviour, passed down man made traditions and customs, contradictions, carnality, idolatry… etc)

Peace to you :)

Arcturus

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Layla

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Re: Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2006, 12:45:38 PM »

Greetings Arturus

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to you.

Quote
Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind. In particular…. quote:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..

For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:

There is no need for alarm.  I think you are misunderstanding what Doug has written.  Careful reading will show he is not saying that the scripture is nullified but rather the reasoning of men.

Quote
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.  Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."


Exactly this confirms what Doug is saying.  Men perceive a particular scripture and then use that scripture (in their own reasoning) to nullify another scripture.  See the above.

2 Cor 6 : 17,18 So, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor. 18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman? Because there is order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills, frustrations, pride, hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman. There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God.

Agreed.  Neither Doug nor myself are suggesting that women ought to usurp the position of men. It wasn't until I found my rightful place as my husband's helpmeet that my marriage has truly been blessed.  But this thread is not about the rightful place for a man and a woman in the flesh, but about whether woman should teach.

Quote
Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…

I can assure your Arturus, I do test the spirit behind every teaching and I would never offer anything here that has not been tested.

Peace,
Layla
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