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Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
Dustin:
Hi,
Does anyone know if Ray has any teachings on this subject? I am trying to gather with people who have been given a good understanding on this issue.
God Bless
Kat:
Hi Dustin,
Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.
Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM »
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Hallow Ray,
I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?
What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church? Take consideration of the following scriptures:
1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
2. Galatians 3:27-28
Regards,
George
Dear George:
I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34? If it does, the why would Paul have written it?
The answer is quote simple:
"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female." But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?
We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation. However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc. I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority. I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.
God be with you,
Ray
Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM »
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my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach. That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Madeline:
But what about women teaching sunday school? Didn't Jesus say in the Great commision to preach the Gospel to all people? Doesn't this apply to all christians male and female? Not saying that a woman should be a Pastor, but is it unbiblical for a woman to teach in general?
Love,
Madeline
eggi:
In reply to Madeline,
I would say it's not unbiblical for women to teach:
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Titus 2:4-5 KJV)
The older women can guide/or teach younger women, if this is needed. Women and men have different roles in this world, but in spirit they are one:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28 KJV)
However, it is clear that Paul is saying that when there is a gathering, the women should not teach:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1Co 14:34 KJV)
Women can prophesy and spread the Gospel elsewhere:
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. (Act 21:9 KJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (Acts 2:17-18 KJV)
Now I'm going slightly off topic here, but this is something that has to do with the oneness which should be in the relationship between men and women, as mentioned above. Often men forget that they too have to be servants of their wives. Men think that this verse takes care of everything:
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23 KJV)
This is often used as an excuse for the man to just leave all the housework to the wife, since he is the head of the wife. This is how the head should be:
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luk 22:25-26 KJV)
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mat 20:25-28 KJV)
Seems like the head position comes with a huge responsibility, a responsibility to serve and sacrifice. In those cases I think a Christian wife would willingly:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (Eph 5:22 KJV)
The marriage can be kept in perfect balance by Jesus Christ, when both man and wife follow His example of serving and loving.
Layla:
The following is a very good word by a brother who I only know as Livelystone (Doug). I hope it helps.
--- Quote ---1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
Greetings To All
The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations. (Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth. In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will?
However I believe in strict adherence to the laws for determining truth and when I look for a second witness that states that a “woman should not teach” I find some problems finding a second witness. When we look for another scripture that speaks against a woman teaching we find one but it is directed against a woman who is evil and not qualified to teach.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
This verse certainly does nothing to keep a good woman from teaching so we need to look further. In the 5th chapter of 1st Timothy we find a lot said about woman in the church not being considered worthy of ministering the things of God. However once again we see that these unqualified woman have grown weak in their faith and “some have already turned aside after Satan”. Once again we are still lacking a reason for a woman of God to be denied the right to teach God’s Word
In 1st Tim 2 there is a reference in verse 13 to Eve who bowed in subjection to Satan just as in the 5th chapter so I question the quality of this woman that is to be silent rather than her gender. Eve is not the woman who represents the church and who is at enmity (an enemy) with Satan. Eve was not at enmity with Satan because she was in compliance with him and was part of the transgression.
Then there is another scripture to consider (amongst others) before one states that a woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures because of her gender.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing.
So in conclusion there are no two witnesses that say a woman who is qualified should not teach, consequently a woman cannot lawfully be denied the pulpit Contrary to one thinking that there are two lawful witnesses that deny woman the right to teach, the scriptures show there is no difference between a man or a woman in Christ as they are both of Him and considered equal.
There is one big however though. As Paul says some things may be lawful but are not expedient to pursue and this may apply here in certain circumstances. If a woman preaching is a problem because she is a woman, then she should either preach somewhere else or refrain from doing so where she is. Plus she had might as well go somewhere where she will be appreciated.
Now all of the above proves that there is no scriptural mandate against woman teaching or holding positions of authority in the church because of the lack of witnesses in the scriptures. However since on the surface (and for the unlearned) there appears to be so, we need to consider why this is so. Once again I urge you to look deeper and consider the spirit/ soul implication that is at the heart of the message seemingly indicating that woman should be forbidden to teach.
God is Spirit. His word is spirit and we need to stop thinking in the natural if we are to move forward in our understanding. With all the spiritual references in the Bible it amazes me that “qualified teachers” look for everything in the natural. Man is a spirit (aka image of God) within an earth suit and when he is given a soul (spiritual body) in the likeness of God, then God’s purpose for His Creation will be complete and the “Mystery of Godliness” will have been fulfilled within man.
Peace and Blessings
Doug.
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