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Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
brothertoall:
Since we are on the subject of women teaching, maybe someone could help explain these verses.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:10-12
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
bobby(bob)
hillsbororiver:
Hi Bobby,
Kat answered this earlier in the thread with a couple of Ray's e-mails,
--- Quote from: Kat on November 15, 2006, 01:16:48 AM ---Hi Dustin,
Here are 2 emails where Ray addressed the subject of women teaching.
Women?
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:09 AM »
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Hallow Ray,
I have done all I could but nobody is prepared to answer my question on the above topic. Can you please clarify me on this question?
What is your view point with regards to women teaching in church? Take consideration of the following scriptures:
1. 1 Cor. 14:34.
2. Galatians 3:27-28
Regards,
George
Dear George:
I am thinking that you believe Gal. 3:27 voids out I Cor. 14:34? If it does, the why would Paul have written it?
The answer is quote simple:
"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female." But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?
We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation. However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc. I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority. I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.
God be with you,
Ray
Women Teachers
« on: September 28, 2006, 10:08:01 AM »
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my name is Troy and I am studying women being able to declare God's Truth. If we are all (men and women) being transformed from glory to glory and to become SONS OF GOD through the spirit,being neither male or female ,how then can a believer say a woman in the flesh can't teach. That belief fall under Jewish customs and traditions.
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
Anyway, I'll write a paper on this subject one day, but not today.
God be with you,
Ray
But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,
Joe
brothertoall:
yes Joe I did read those emails and I just was having a memory block.
bobby
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Dustin and Bobby,
This might help.
To begin with let me quote you Dustin:
Just ask your self these questions
· Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
· Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
These are good questions.
To respond:
Firstly lets look at what you what you could mean Dustin and Bobby when you say “church”……and in your case Dustin you ask……….”would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent ‘in the church?’
There are TWO Church’s.
These following excerpts are meant only to point this out. There is a paper that is even more specific about the fact that there are two churches and can be found elsewhere in Ray’s, The Lake of Fire series.
The Lake of Fire - Part XTHE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
The Lake of Fire - PART VI TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE
………….contrary to popular Christian tradition, Jesus did NOT say that He would build His church upon Peter. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Greek, petros, a piece of detached stone or rock], and upon THIS ROCK` [Greek, petra {a different kind of rock}, a mass of rock that cannot be moved as in Matt. 7:24 and 27:60, which is distinct from petros which is a smaller detached rock that can be moved] will I built MY CHURCH; and the gates of the unseen [hades] shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus named Simon, "Cephas"(Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas which is Chaldee):
"And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, He said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone" (John 1:42),
that is, a smaller detached stone or rock in contrast to Himself Who is a huge unmovable mass of foundational BEDROCK. See Luke 6:48. The Church of the Living God is build upon CHRIST, not Peter! And so it is upon this SPIRITUAL, unmovable, foundational, bedrock of Jesus Christ that we are to be built into a new spiritual creation.
TAKE HEED HOW YOU BUILD
Constructing a building is a process that requires time and activity. Since God likens the building of His spiritual temple to the assembling of a physical building, then this process, likewise, requires time and activity. Time and activity is what we call living our lives. Now then, when does judgment begin at the building of this house of God? Answer:
"For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God…" (I Peter 4:17).
And so it clearly has already begun with the Apostles and New Testament Church nearly two thousand years ago. And it is still going on in the Church of God today, in every believer’s life, as he lives his life.
Therefore, Paul warns:
"But let every man take heed HOW he builds [his building’] thereupon" (I Cor. 3:10).
And so judgment is upon the building of God’s house as each individual believer is framed and fitted for the calling that God has for each individual. This judgment began in the days of the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord. It continued generation after generation down through the age until today when it yet continues. And it will continue still further until the entire harvest of first fruits is completed. Remember we already learned that if we would judge ourselves now, Paul said we would not be condemned with the world later (I Cor. 11:32).
It is while we are living and building that our works are being tried and judged BY FIRE according to HOW we are building. What fire? God’s fire. God’s "CONSUMING [spiritual] FIRE" (Heb. 12:29)! God is SPIRIT and likewise His fire is SPIRIT. ……………….unquote
My Point….There are TWO Churches.
So now… lets review your question Dustin….. Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
Here is how Jesus talked to the women from the Church of Satan.
Luke 23 : 27 And there accompanied Jesus a great multitude of the people, including women who bewailed and lamented Him. 28. But Jesus, turning toward them, said, Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29. For behold, the days are coming during which they will say, Blessed, happy, fortunate, and to be envied are the barren and the wombs that have not borne, and the breasts that have never nursed babies! 30. Then they will begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us! And to the hills, Cover, conceal, hide us! 31. For if they do these things (bewailing and lamenting Him) when the timber is green, (Jesus was only 33 years old ) what will happen when it is dry? (Jesus is risen. He is neither wet nor green behind the ears.) What will He say …Depart from me you cursed, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels! Matt 25:41
The admonition is to us ALL and not just to you and I to…..Take care how you build YOUR house…..!
But WHO are the Daughters of Jerusalem?
In which Church do they belong? Let’s see …………excerpt quote from
The Lake of Fire - PART VI
JERUSALEM IS FAR WORSE THAN THE VERY WORST
"Yet have you not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, YOU WERE CORRUPTED MORE THAN THEY IN ALL YOUR WAYS. As I live, says the Lord God, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as YOU [Jerusalem] HAVE DONE, you and your daughters" (Verses 47-48).
"Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins; but you have MULTIPLIED YOUR ABOMINATIONS MORE THAN THEY, and have justified your sisters in all YOUR ABOMINATIONS which you have done. You also, which have judged your sisters, bear your own shame for your sins that YOU HAVE COMMITTED MORE ABOMINABLE THAN THEY: they are MORE RIGHTEOUS [imagine God saying that Sodom is ‘more righteous’ than Jerusalem?] than you" (Verse 52).
Unquote…..
Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
If the women were in the Church of Satan….they would NOT be silent….. I believe Jesus would rebuke them in no uncertain terms! Like “Weep for yourselves…bear your own shame for your sins!…..”
If the women were in the Church of Christ, would Jesus silence them….….NO….because .they would be listening…..Luke 10 : 41 ….Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things; 42 There is need of only one, or but a few things, Mary has chosen the good portion, that which is to her advantage, which shall not be taken away from her.
You ask....Does any chrurch or group obey this ……..
There is not one human institution called Church that is obeying Christ or following Him. They are ALL in error and they are ALL CALLED to overcome the error of their ways. They are called to Rev 2 : 5 Remember from what heights they have fallen and repent, change the inner man to meet God’s will and do the works they previously did when they first knew the Lord…..They are called to vs.14. stop holding on to the doctrine of Balaam who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to entice them to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness, giving themselves up to sexual vice.(sexual vice here is not literal it is spiritual prostitution of Christ’s intimate and holy teachings adulterated with doctrines, creeds, customs and traditions of man) They are called to…vs 20 stop TOLERANCE OF THE WOMAN JEZEBEL, who calls herself a prophetess, claiming to be inspired and who is TEACHING AND LEADING astray my servants and BEGUILING them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols. (Food here is not literal. It is food as in commandments of God sacrificed to idols of man) These are the Churches that have a name and to which Jesus says Rev 3 : 1 …I know your record and what you are doing; you are supposed to be alive, but in reality you are dead. These are the Churches that say Rev 3 : 17 I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy and am in need of nothing…These are the Churches who do not realize and understand that they are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. These Churches are called to repent and overcome and to all this Christ says : Rev 3 : 22 He who is able to hear, let him LISTEN to and HEED what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES.
So : Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment…..
No church (as in man made institution) obeys….I believe that the “group” who are like-minded with Christ’s mind, both LISTEN to and HEED the Spirit of God……..but this group is not The Church....
It is a common failing to believe certain doctrines because others do. This is a manifestly fruitful cause of error. Many people have believed and sincerely taught error and many still do. Churches are devoted to teaching error. Acts 26:9 I myself was once persuaded that it was my duty to do many things contrary to and in defiance of the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
As for you, be not mis-led to worship, follow or believe the traditions and creeds of men. 2 Tim 3:15 The Scriptures (not the Churches) are able to make wise unto salvation, through faith, which is in Christ Jesus alone…
You quote: Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
The scriptures do not contradict. Perhaps you will enjoy the Amplified translation : For even the Jews themselves do not really keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh, your subjection to EXTERNAL RITES….(man made doctrines, false beliefs, ungodly behaviour, passed down man made traditions and customs, contradictions, carnality, idolatry… etc)
Peace to you :)
Arcturus
Layla:
Greetings Arturus
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to you.
--- Quote ---Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind. In particular…. quote:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..
For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:
--- End quote ---
There is no need for alarm. I think you are misunderstanding what Doug has written. Careful reading will show he is not saying that the scripture is nullified but rather the reasoning of men.
--- Quote ---One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature. Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
--- End quote ---
Exactly this confirms what Doug is saying. Men perceive a particular scripture and then use that scripture (in their own reasoning) to nullify another scripture. See the above.
2 Cor 6 : 17,18 So, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor. 18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman? Because there is order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills, frustrations, pride, hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman. There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God.
Agreed. Neither Doug nor myself are suggesting that women ought to usurp the position of men. It wasn't until I found my rightful place as my husband's helpmeet that my marriage has truly been blessed. But this thread is not about the rightful place for a man and a woman in the flesh, but about whether woman should teach.
--- Quote ---Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…
--- End quote ---
I can assure your Arturus, I do test the spirit behind every teaching and I would never offer anything here that has not been tested.
Peace,
Layla
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