Hi Rocky,
Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.
In regard to what you wrote above;
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Joe,
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
That entire passage is about being
born of the spirit, being
born again. Do you think that Jesus was saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this body of flesh? That we must first die PHYSICALLY?
Don't we either walk in the flesh OR walk in the spirit?
Here are some of the preceding verses in that chapter. Is Jesus telling Nicodemus about something that is NOT going to happen until after he dies physically? It seems very clear to me that Nicodemus understood that this must happen while in the flesh. Why else would he have wondered about it? Why would he have asked about re-entering the womb of our mothers? And if he was just misunderstanding what Jesus was saying then why didn't Jesus correct him by simply telling that this would NOT be accomplished while in the flesh?
Joh 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee,
Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit[/b].
If you are saying that we must DIE PHYSICALLY in order to be born again (of the spirit) then you are saying that none of us can see the kingdom of God, for we MUST be BORN AGAIN in order to see the kingdom of God.
You seem to believe that that last verse is talking about
us (physically). Am I misunderstanding?
To me, it tells us HOW we are "born again" (BY THE SPIRIT).
I don't think the translator worded it right or clearly enough.
Look at the words:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so [
houtōin;
in this way (referring to what precedes or follows)] is [
esti;
is] every one [pas; all, any, every, the whole] that is born [gennaō; to procreate] of the Spirit.
It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about
the spirit and HOW we are born again… not the condition that
we are in physically (as in invisible spirits)
when we are born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell when it cometh, and whither it goeth:
IN THIS WAY is everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
It is BY THE SPIRIT that we are "born again" or "born of the spirit".
Are you are saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in the flesh? And is that what Ray teaches and believes?
That seems very foreign to me and to what Jesus was saying (as I understand it) and to what the scriptures tell us about the flesh vs the spirit and the inner man vs the outer man, etc. My goodness, that just does not sit right with my spirit or with how I understand the word of God.
Sin is condemned
in the flesh; as he is so are we
IN THIS WORLD; His spirit quickens
our MORTAL bodies; etc, etc, etc. Christ came to give us LIFE. The ONLY way we can have that LIFE is to be baptized into his DEATH (NOW) and be "born again"
of the spirit.
So to say that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this flesh, that that doesn’t happen until after we die, seems to go completely against the word of God and the entire POINT that Christ was making, not to mention the words of Paul and the other disciples.
As Rocky said (and as I also understand it), we are NOT in the flesh but in the spirit IF the spirit of God dwells in us; those "in the flesh" CANNOT PLEASE GOD. So are you sure you want to insist that we ARE "still in the flesh" just because we still have this body of death (as Paul called it)? Is that hearing what the SPIRIT is saying to those who are WALKING IN THE SPIRIT?
Rom 8:1-15 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me
free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was
weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled
in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For
to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then
they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(so are we still in the flesh?) But
ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
(no! not if the spirit of God dwells in us. Isn't that what this says?) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And
if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But
if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh,
ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but
ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.We cannot cry ABBA, FATHER except through the SPIRIT of the SON that is IN US. Are you saying that we cannot and do not do that while in the flesh?
We must pass from death unto life, right? Do we not do that until after we die? That cannot be.
But so to not get too far off topic, since the topic is women and teaching... how might this (being in the flesh vs in the spirit) relate to what Paul said about husbands and wives (not simply men and women):
Paul very clearly said that he was talking about Christ and the church (not husbands and wives after the flesh), didn't he?
Eph 5:32-33
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband[/u].
Paul was not addressing men and women after the flesh; if he was, then who is the single woman or the widowed woman "subject" to?
Paul was using the marriage relationship that was established by God in the beginning to show us THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH BEHIND IT. Adam (male) was formed FIRST, THEN Eve (female - from Adam) and then they were JOINED TOGETHER and made ONE FLESH.
CHRIST FIRST, THEN the CHURCH; the HEAD FIRST, THEN the BODY.
Those who are still "in the flesh", minding the things of the flesh may have only been able to hear what Paul was saying in terms of the FLESH (applying it to husbands and wives after the flesh), but aren't we supposed to be able to discern what the
SPIRIT of the Word is? Christ said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
IF the SPIRIT of God dwells IN US and we are born "of the spirit"... then are we still "in the flesh"? (Paul says no.) Are we still "male and female" or are we ONE FLESH?
Is God a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS? Or is man?
Are we (even though male and female after the flesh) not joined together as ONE FLESH; ONE BODY with ONE HEAD through the SPIRIT?
So are we now to look at these verses
after the flesh (husbands and wives)? rather than
after the spirit (Christ and the church)? To say that we are "still in the flesh"?
I pray (God willing) I am NOT still in the flesh to mind the things of the flesh.
If the spirit of God dwells IN ME, then it is not "me" (whether I be male or female after the flesh) who speaks but it is the WORD OF GOD that is IN ME that speaks; it is the SON doing THE WILL OF THE FATHER who is SPEAKING (AND DOING).
Even MEN are the BRIDE (female) of Christ and WOMEN are still SONS (male) of God.
Can we not see that MEN AND WOMEN (after the flesh) fall into BOTH of these categories?
I will be extremely shocked if you tell me that neither you nor Ray (nor most of those here) believes that we are born again until after we die. I have been readling here for a long time and I never realized that to be the case, if it is.
athisfeet