> General Discussions
Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
Dustin:
--- Quote from: Layla on November 15, 2006, 11:37:07 PM ---
--- Quote ---God is Spirit. His word is spirit
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
Very good!
I received this response from a very Spiritual lady:
(Rom 7:2) For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. I think that "woman" that has a husband is us (the Bride) while we are in the church (body of Christ)! We are bound by the "law" of the 'husband', the churches.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man. When does our husband die? When the 'churches' cast us out! They cast us out because we are being "cut out" of the body having liberty in the 'spirit' no longer under the "law"! We (the Bride) is then joined to ANOTHER MAN! I am seeing that the body of Christ (church) represents 'Christ in the flesh' and under NT law! I see the OTHER MAN represents Christ the bridegroom in the spirit, no more law!
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. There it is! We are made dead to the law, it says 'through' the body of Christ - I see that as taken through or passed through the body of Christ! All the elect come through the church! The 'bride' is joined to ANOTHER, who is that? That's Christ who was raised from the dead, the bridegroom no longer has flesh and physical order - he is all "spirit" after he died and was raised!
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Don't the churches always bring forth fruit onto death? Do they ever keep all the laws and commandments? Not likely!
(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. The law 'holds us' us back! The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you. The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib". The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart! The body would miss such a part.
As men we can't let this be an idol of the heart. We know that only the Spirit can teach and give eyes to see this.
God Bless
__
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Deborah-Leigh:
I enjoy the Scriptural balance you strike Eggi.
Layla the quote from Doug holds a theme wherein it causes a few alarm bells to go off in my mind. In particular…. quote:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ, it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach because it essentially says the same thing…..
For me this sounds the alarm because of what Ray observes that the scriptures do not contradict in:
GOD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ETERNAL FATE OF AFRICANS
A Sermon by: James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,
D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique by: L. Ray Smith
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."…….unquoteRays observation and the discussion on this thread points me to the following scriptures:
2 Cor 6 : 17,18 So, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing; then I will receive you kindly and treat you with favor. 18. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (Why not just sons. Why did God create Adam first. Why not Eve first and Adam from her rib? Why was Jesus a man and not a woman? Because there is order.) The absence of order unleashes all kinds of ills, frustrations, pride, hurts and break downs that fall short of Gods divine perfection and will for both man and woman. There is an order. It is a Divine order. It works. It brings peace, harmony, blessing and right standing with God.
1 Peter 3 : 6 It was thus that Sarah obeyed Abraham, following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by calling him lord, master, leader, authority, And you are now her true daughter if you do right………..
Both Jezebel and Sarah took things into their own hands with dire consequences for both. Dogs ate Jezebel and Sarah suffered to be caused to facilitate the birth of the Nation of children without promise.
Jesus came to fulfil the scriptures and in like fashion we have to test the spirit behind every teaching to see if it contradicts any scripture or worse if it “helps to nullify “ any scripture making bitter what is sweet and sweet what is bitter.…
Dustin, I enjoyed your view point.
(Rom 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. The law 'holds us' us back! The time does come when we are discharged from the law! We graduate at some point and come out from under the law of the 'schoolmaster'. We know the Word says.....by thine own words I will judge you. The bride is formed from a small insignificant part of the body that will not be missed - a little "rib". The overseer is much too important to the body, he's an organ like a brain or a heart! The body would miss such a part.Unquote
…….. certainly the body would miss the head if it were to be beheaded! For me Christ is the head of the body just as man is the head of the woman. I do not see this as subservience or devaluation of women into a lesser role of inferiority. Not at all. I see it as design….the way God has made it to be.
For me the masculine (in men) and feminine ( in woman) of our absolute and relative differences brings the fruit of Christ’s spirit into our hearts homes and marital relationships only as our differences cease from competing or fighting to rearrange, re-write or alter the orderliness of Gods perfect design plan that shows the rules for male and female interaction in His Scriptures. The world’s wisdom that teaches men to be like woman and woman to be like man is foolishness for me. Where Jesus implored God to ….let them be one as we are one…has vast ramifications for both male and female. Two men can not make one woman and no number of woman can make or equal one man. Six apples will never be one peach and visa versa.
For me the head is to the body as God is to Christ. Our human, social issues of compliance and submission to God’s Divine design is challenged in male and female differences that come under pressure to merge or dissolve under trial and testing. So the world tries to make out of men and women a proverbial fruit salad mix up mash up cocktail of errors. God’s trial and testing is avoided by the worlds adaptation to its own design and its own form of anarchy and darkness and permissive tolerance. By contrast, under trial and testing Christ proved faithful unto death.
Do woman seek to erase the authority of men and do men no longer wish to lead women? For me, a woman that has a husband who abdicates his authority is a Jezebel in the making. When men no longer lead and woman no longer submit it produces an atmosphere in which children will not be able to clearly identify their own sexual integrity because divine order is blurred. When we loose sight and direction under Gods divine order it brings dysfunction the likes of which homosexuality is only one result with frustrated woman and despairing men heading only for pitiful deaths in terminal relationships or worse still into the spirit of religion that closets and suppresses the deformation taking place deep in the soul realm. This for me can be likened to putting iron shoes on a baby and never removing them as the feet grow…or putting a clean white lace handkerchief over a gaping wide sewerage tank.
Likewise… A man who has a wife who is un submissive, who wants to lead and be the boss is a tormented man, and if not tormented then already defeated. A man who will not lead and a woman who will not submit is a travesty, a contradiction and a formula for disaster.……which is part of Gods plan to show us all that only HIS way can work….only Gods order and design for both man and woman has, does and will ever work……..God’s plan is that we come to discover this through painful sometimes pitiful trials, errors, confusion, illusions, wrong thinking and deceptive idols of the heart.
The world is likewise in gross error right now….and this too is part of Gods plan, ahead of Gods correction, judgement and restoration to His way truth and life. God will, right every wrong and correct every corruption. Every crooked path will be straightened and every rocky place made plane. No iron shoes, no sewerage tanks, no more death blows of crucifixion but resurrection into the victorious life of Jesus Christ, Gods Son not daughter.
But who have believed?………….few even agree!…….and the world resists…......
Peace to you
Arcturus
Dustin:
I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.
Just ask your self these questions
* Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
* Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Dustin on November 16, 2006, 08:36:47 PM ---I'm going to follow the rules and not debate, this will be my last post.
Just ask your self these questions
* Would Jesus Christ have asked the women to be silent in the church?
* Does any chrurch or group obey this commandment and was it acted upon at Ray's recent gathering?
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Please receive in Love
--- End quote ---
Hi Dustin,
Jesus was the unchallenged leader in His congregation, during His ministry no man or woman was teaching Him.
I was at the Conference as was Kat who answered to this earlier in the thread, everyone received the same amount of love and respect, a woman's viewpoint or question was treated in the very same manner as a man's would be.
At our get together's during the Conference weekend we would fellowship informally between Ray's presentations and in the evenings with each other sometimes in groups that would be entirely made up of one gender or the other and sometimes mixed, there was no controlling authority.
I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
When we are raised in our spiritual uncorruptable bodies and are changed, at that time we will no longer be male or female.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
rocky:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on November 16, 2006, 08:54:54 PM ---I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
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