bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: when the saints come marching in  (Read 12348 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

stego

  • Guest
when the saints come marching in
« on: November 21, 2006, 06:14:25 AM »

Hi all,
    Do i understand correctly that all the old testament saints will have to go through God's great white thrown judgement?  I am trying to fully grasp why, as it seems the only thing differentiating them at the end of their lives to us is that we have had the opportunity to belive in Jesus Christ.  So my question is what still yet needs to be purified in those who were faithful believers in God such that they would need to go through judgement?  And my second question is, isn't it true for the elect that even at the time of their physical deaths they are still not fully purified from sin?  So when do they finish purification if they don't ever go through the white thrown judgement?   Are the elect fully purified when they are resurected at the first resurection to reign with Jesus?  Thanks for your help all. 

Sean
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 12:44:07 PM »

Hi Sean,

Quote
Do i understand correctly that all the old testament saints will have to go through God's great white thrown judgement?

This is the answer to an email to Ray, I think it covers your first question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html

Dear Dave:

Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.

What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?"  Answer:  Nothing!  And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ"  (John 1:18).  Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ.  "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes.  Are we 'saved by faith?'  NO--'By  GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8.  Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life?  NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).

Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins?  NO.  No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']"  (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).

Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?'  Answer:  "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN  H-I-M  [JESUS]"  (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.

God be with you,

Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning the second part of your post.

Quote
Are the elect fully purified when they are resurected at the first resurection to reign with Jesus?

I think that is correct.
The elect only have the guarantee or earnest of our inheritance now.  They are being shaped and molded throught the experiences in this life, but not until they are in the resurrection will they be complete.

Eph 1:11  In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, v.12  so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
v.13  In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, v.14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

1Co 15:42  So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
v.43  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
v.44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Jesus is now at the Father's right hand in glory,  and "we shall be like Him".

Heb 1:3  He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, v.4  having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 10:23:04 AM by Kat »
Logged

stego

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 04:40:38 AM »

Thanks Kat, you fully answered my questions. 
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 08:58:23 PM »

Is this thread saying that at the time of their death, the elect will still have been sinning.  What then does it mean to "endure" to the end?

And why must infants who have died need to go through the LOF?  I understand that we are born to be "sinning machines" but an infant can't  consciously sin.

Whatever help you can provide.  Thanks.

Eileen
Logged

musicman

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 09:10:21 PM »

Eileen, you would agree that infants have to mature before entering into the kingdom, wouldn't you?  I would say that they will have a much easier time than those of us that have lived an entire life of sinfullness.  Besides, infants have no knowledge of anything so they must first learn.  I think Hitler will wish that he had died as an infant when he begins to undergo all of that torment in the LOF.
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 10:32:27 PM »

Is this thread saying that at the time of their death, the elect will still have been sinning.  What then does it mean to "endure" to the end?

And why must infants who have died need to go through the LOF?  I understand that we are born to be "sinning machines" but an infant can't  consciously sin.

Whatever help you can provide.  Thanks.

Eileen


No, this thread isn't saying the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection...you might want to look at Kat's comments again particularly 1 John 3:2.

The infants who have died do not go through the LOF as infants...their judgment begins once they mature.

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,815.0.html):

Dear Reader:
    Babies will not enter into the Kingdom of God. In Isa 65:20 we read this concerning judgment:  "There shall be NO more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not FILLED his days: for the child shall die an HUNDRED years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
     
    Don't now ask me to "explain" the judgments of God, as that would take weeks.
    God be with you,
    Ray



Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 01:07:33 AM »

No, this thread isn't saying the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection...you might want to look at Kat's comments again particularly 1 John 3:2.


I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).

I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be.  Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?

As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of.  That's what the LOF is, a purification process.

BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.

Eileen 
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 01:24:20 AM »

I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).

I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be.  Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?

As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of.  That's what the LOF is, a purification process.

BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.

Eileen 


Oh, I see...the Elect will not be completely spiritual perfect until the resurrection. But during our lifetime, sin begins to no longer have dominion over us...though we are still sinners.

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.msg55173.html#msg55173):

My Web Master suggested I made an editorial note to my last reply to Jeremy's email on quitting sin. I was not suggesting that we becomes totally "sinless" when we become spiritually converted. The key is in the word I used to reference Romans chapter 6 in which it is stated that sin shall not have "DOMINION" over our lives. Now there is a different between consciously living sin free, and committing sins even when we consciously determine not to sin.  It is not humanly possible to live totally sin free. Notice Paul's words:

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

This letter was written years into Paul's ministry, and years after his bitter repentance, and YET, he states, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect..." If Paul could admit to that, where oh where do you think most of us come in?  Yet we should all come to the place in our lives where "sin shall NOT have dominion over you." Hope this makes my previous statements a littler clearer.

God be with you,

Ray


Infants will mature (physically grow) in the next age in the same way they do now...they will grow up. But once their time of judgment begins, they must repent of all their carnality as they are still in the flesh in the next age. Remember, all forms of evil in a person comes from their heart...not from outside the person.

Matt 15:16-20  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:...

Mark 7:18-23  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Basically, when infants grow up in the next age, though never experiencing life in this present wicked age, will need to repent and be purged of the carnality in their own hearts.


Hope this helps,

Marques
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 01:26:57 AM by mharrell08 »
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 09:36:15 AM »

I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).

I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be.  Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?

As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of.  That's what the LOF is, a purification process.

BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.

Eileen 
Infants will mature (physically grow) in the next age in the same way they do now...they will grow up. But once their time of judgment begins, they must repent of all their carnality as they are still in the flesh in the next age. Remember, all forms of evil in a person comes from their heart...not from outside the person.

Matt 15:16-20  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:...

Mark 7:18-23  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
[/b]

Basically, when infants grow up in the next age, though never experiencing life in this present wicked age, will need to repent and be purged of the carnality in their own hearts.


Hope this helps,

Marques

An infant that dies will be dead (unaware/sleeping) until the resurrection, right?  At the resurrection we are raised with spiritual bodies, right?

How can a spiritual body physically grow?

Perhaps I am confused about the process of the resurrection altogether?  ??? ???

Eileen
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 10:12:08 AM »

An infant that dies will be dead (unaware/sleeping) until the resurrection, right?  At the resurrection we are raised with spiritual bodies, right?

How can a spiritual body physically grow?

Perhaps I am confused about the process of the resurrection altogether?  ??? ???

Eileen

Infants are raised in physical bodies...then they grow & mature into adults who will have carnal minds (seeing they are still of the flesh). Then their judgment begins when they learn to repent of their carnal heart & mind.

Infants are carnal in nature...though they are unaware of this, their focus is themselves...always. They don't care how tired their mom is, weary their dad is...when they want something, that's all that matters. That's carnal, plain & simple.

Try this letter from Ray regarding resurrected bodies: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html


Marques
Logged

cherokee

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 10:45:21 AM »

Quote
Infants are raised in physical bodies...then they grow & mature into adults who will have carnal minds (seeing they are still of the flesh). Then their judgment begins when they learn to repent of their carnal heart & mind.

Infants are carnal in nature...though they are unaware of this, their focus is themselves...always. They don't care how tired their mom is, weary their dad is...when they want something, that's all that matters. That's carnal, plain & simple.

Try this letter from Ray regarding resurrected bodies: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html


Marques

Here is a quote from a email that adds to what Marques posted.
Quote
In the case with children we are told:  "There shall be no more thence
an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the
child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).
Here is the link to the email: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html

Infant:(from Strong's) H5764-a babe: sucking child, infant, also from H5763-A primitive root; to suckle, that is, give milk:-milch, (ewe great) with young.

Hope this helps.

Suzie
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 11:39:00 AM »

Hi Suzie,

Your email link and definition of "infant" seem to be speaking of the "spiritual minor" and not necessarily the physical or natural infant.  And that I understand.

The following scripture seems to clarify things a little:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].

From the above, I can see the wicked vs. the elect.  What I don't see is why an infant (some of whom were not even born alive) would be subject to this "shame,reproach,disgrace,contempt, aversion, abhorrence.

Marques, this is what I see you are saying (correct me if I am wrong).

1.  Infants die in and out of the womb having never experienced any chastisement qualifying them as Elect.           
     If ever given the chance, they would have sinned and therefore are subject to the LOF.

2.   AFTER they are resurrected, they must "physically" and "spritually" mature.
      They will be resurrected with a physical body that will physically grow and they will
      learn or experience the sinful nature that they will then have to repent of?

3.  They go to the WTJ/LOF where they do this repenting.

4.  They are now worthy of the Kingdom and enter with a spiritual body and purified of all carnality?

Bear with me while I try to grasp this.

Eileen
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 11:57:25 AM »

Marques, this is what I see you are saying (correct me if I am wrong).

1.  Infants die in and out of the womb having never experienced any chastisement qualifying them as Elect.           
     If ever given the chance, they would have sinned and therefore are subject to the LOF.

2.   AFTER they are resurrected, they must "physically" and "spritually" mature.
      They will be resurrected with a physical body that will physically grow and they will
      learn or experience the sinful nature that they will then have to repent of?

3.  They go to the WTJ/LOF where they do this repenting.

4.  They are now worthy of the Kingdom and enter with a spiritual body and purified of all carnality?

Bear with me while I try to grasp this.

Eileen


Correct


Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 12:17:38 PM »


Hi Eileen,

Just something I thought to add.  When Christ returns to reign and rule it will be to this earth. 

Rev 5:10  and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.

The whole earth will be subject to Him, so in reality the LOF will consist of the whole earth.  Only the Elect will gain spiritual Life.  The rest will be brought back to physical life and cast onto the earth/LOF to learn to live righteous through living a second physical life and this is the second death to them.

Rev 21:8  But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Christ and the Elect will be ruling and maybe at first forcing the world to conform.  People will not be allowed to afflict evil on one another.  Babies will be brought back to physical life too and raised up and go through the pulls of the flesh and carnality and have the learn righteousness as well. 

This is just how I see it and thought it might help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 12:21:44 PM »

Email to ray; Hope it helps Eileen

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1883.0.html

Dear Wesley:

Man is mortal, so all mankiknd will and must die eventually. Even those "who are alive and remain) unto the coming of the Lord will be changed. In that sense, their old flesh body dies.

But we must also spiritually die to ourselves WHILE WE ARE STILL ALIVE.  This only hapens to those who are "baptized in Christ," not baptized into water. Those who are "crucified with Christ."  Those who are "begotten anew from above." Those who are made "a new creature," in the "Image of God's Son," etc. In other words only God's chosen elect few will experience these things in this life and be resurrection to immortality with a spiritual body in the first resurrection., The rest of humanity which has died once PHYSICALLY,  will be resurrected in the second resurrection in which they too will have to spiritually die to their old carnal man and be made righteous (Isa. 26:9).

God be with you,

Ray





Peace...Mark
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 12:32:48 PM »

Kat,
Quote
Babies will be brought back to physical life too and raised up and go through the pulls of the flesh and carnality and have the learn righteousness as well.


When the wicked are resurrected, they are resurrected to physical life on this physical earth?  Such as was Lazarus and the saints that were resurrected with Christ "on the third day"?  Like they get a second chance here on earth?  While Christ and the Elect rule the earth?

I'm so confused. ??? ??? ??? ???

Eileen
Logged

Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 12:55:42 PM »

Kat,
Quote
Babies will be brought back to physical life too and raised up and go through the pulls of the flesh and carnality and have the learn righteousness as well.


When the wicked are resurrected, they are resurrected to physical life on this physical earth?  Such as was Lazarus and the saints that were resurrected with Christ "on the third day"?  Like they get a second chance here on earth?  While Christ and the Elect rule the earth?

I'm so confused. ??? ??? ??? ???

Eileen






Eileen,Hope this helps :)
Email to Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7560.0.html


Dear Diran:  Your questions are not worded precisely enough to know exactly what you are asking, but I'll make a try at it with a few COMMENTS.......


Good day sir,

May God give you more wisdom in the teaching of His word.

Now I want to ask question on this issue of resurrection which is confusing.

1.  It is agreed that the believer/saint of God will resurrect with spiritual or glorified bodies if this are the same to reign with Christ. Now is Christ reigning physically as a person on this earth?

COMMENT:  First, Jesus IS "a person." Who would He reign as a non-person? What is a "non-person?"  Christ will reign spiritually, but that spiritual reign has many physical manifestations.  Was Jehovah a  "physical" God over Israel? It is difficult to even know what you mean by such a phrase. God is not physical, but He can and does interact with physical people. And yes, it will be on this "earth," not on some other world or plant or heavenly realm.

 if yes then are the resurrected saint reigning with Him in spiritual bodies while He reign physically? this is confusing. Pls shed more light scripturally.If this lake of fire is spiritual, then I agree that the torment will be for ever. What is your stake on this?.

COMMENT:  I'm sorry, but I just don't get that? Do you mean while Christ is "reigning physically with a spiritual body?" or "reigning physically with a physical body?"  When Jesus was resurrected "SPIRITUALLY," He still had the power to manifest Himself in several DIFFERENT forms or bodies--the stranger walking with the two men to Emmaus, the gardener, the stranger on the shore, and as His old physical self with holes in His body.

Apparently God's Servants will be able to physically manifest themselves so that they can be SEEN:

Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall SEE thy teachers:

And on other occasions they will NOT be seen:

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall HEAR a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

2.  The wicked are to resurrect physically to face judgment in the lake of fire which is the second death. If the lake of fire is spiritual as per your writeup, how on earth can one be physically thrown into the spiritual lake of fire.

COMMENT:  Did you actually read my Installment:  "Hades and the Second Death?"  We (if we are the Elect of God), right here and now, in our physical flesh, go through the second death/lake of fire, and that fire is SPIRITUAL!  We in the flesh do not go through LITERAL fire to be spiritually cleansed and purified.  We go through spiritual fire.  Our literal trails are spiritual fire and spiritual judgment. Why can't physical people go through spiritual trials and judgment? Peter calls them "FIERY trials" (I Pet. 4:12).  Maybe re-read my last Installment.

God be with you,

Ray




Peace...Mark
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 02:07:56 PM »

These Scriptures are either correct and prove why everyone must be cleansed or they are wrong and young ones need no cleansing. None that does good, none righteous, none that seeks after GOD, all sin, not a just man on earth. Just in these few Scriptures the answer shouts out, read them in any context and the same answer is still there.

Gen 3:19 (MKJV)
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 7:20 (KJV)
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Rom 3: 10-11 (KJV)
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Heb 9: 27-28 (MKJV)
27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
28  so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. And to those who look for Him He shall appear the second time without sin to salvation.

Rom 11:32 (GW)
God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.

Rom 11:32 (MKJV)
For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.

george. :)

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 03:12:11 PM by aqr »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2009, 03:10:04 PM »


Hi Eileen,

Quote
When the wicked are resurrected, they are resurrected to physical life on this physical earth?  Such as was Lazarus and the saints that were resurrected with Christ "on the third day"?  Like they get a second chance here on earth? 


That is my understanding of it.

Quote
While Christ and the Elect rule the earth?

Yes Christ and the Elect will rule the earth, but as spirit beings I believe they will live in the heavenly, where Christ is now with the Father.

1Th 4:17  then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This earth is not the the place we should be seeking to remain, spiritual being have a spiritual domain.  But just as Christ could manifest Himself on earth instantly, I think so it will be with the Elect.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14  For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
Heb 11:15  And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 07:39:28 PM by Kat »
Logged

Terry

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 195
Re: when the saints come marching in
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 12:38:44 AM »

After reading this reply by Ray it seems to say that the old testament saints lived by faith and since we're not saved by faith but by grace through Jesus it seems the old testament saints won't be in the first resurrection unless they are of Gods elect which puts me back where i started, Totally Confused
Terry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Do i understand correctly that all the old testament saints will have to go through God's great white thrown judgement?

This is the answer to an email to Ray, I think it covers your first question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html

Dear Dave:

Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.

What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?"  Answer:  Nothing!  And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ"  (John 1:18).  Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ.  "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes.  Are we 'saved by faith?'  NO--'By  GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8.  Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life?  NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).

Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins?  NO.  No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']"  (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).

Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?'  Answer:  "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN  H-I-M  [JESUS]"  (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.

God be with you,

Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logged
Terry
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.042 seconds with 22 queries.