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when the saints come marching in
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: EKnight on April 19, 2009, 05:58:23 PM ---Is this thread saying that at the time of their death, the elect will still have been sinning. What then does it mean to "endure" to the end?
And why must infants who have died need to go through the LOF? I understand that we are born to be "sinning machines" but an infant can't consciously sin.
Whatever help you can provide. Thanks.
Eileen
--- End quote ---
No, this thread isn't saying the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection...you might want to look at Kat's comments again particularly 1 John 3:2.
The infants who have died do not go through the LOF as infants...their judgment begins once they mature.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,815.0.html):
Dear Reader:
Babies will not enter into the Kingdom of God. In Isa 65:20 we read this concerning judgment: "There shall be NO more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not FILLED his days: for the child shall die an HUNDRED years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
Don't now ask me to "explain" the judgments of God, as that would take weeks.
God be with you,
Ray
Hope this helps,
Marques
EKnight:
No, this thread isn't saying the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection...you might want to look at Kat's comments again particularly 1 John 3:2.
I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).
I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be. Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?
As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of. That's what the LOF is, a purification process.
BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.
Eileen
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: EKnight on April 19, 2009, 10:07:33 PM ---I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).
I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be. Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?
As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of. That's what the LOF is, a purification process.
BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Oh, I see...the Elect will not be completely spiritual perfect until the resurrection. But during our lifetime, sin begins to no longer have dominion over us...though we are still sinners.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.msg55173.html#msg55173):
My Web Master suggested I made an editorial note to my last reply to Jeremy's email on quitting sin. I was not suggesting that we becomes totally "sinless" when we become spiritually converted. The key is in the word I used to reference Romans chapter 6 in which it is stated that sin shall not have "DOMINION" over our lives. Now there is a different between consciously living sin free, and committing sins even when we consciously determine not to sin. It is not humanly possible to live totally sin free. Notice Paul's words:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
This letter was written years into Paul's ministry, and years after his bitter repentance, and YET, he states, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect..." If Paul could admit to that, where oh where do you think most of us come in? Yet we should all come to the place in our lives where "sin shall NOT have dominion over you." Hope this makes my previous statements a littler clearer.
God be with you,
Ray
Infants will mature (physically grow) in the next age in the same way they do now...they will grow up. But once their time of judgment begins, they must repent of all their carnality as they are still in the flesh in the next age. Remember, all forms of evil in a person comes from their heart...not from outside the person.
Matt 15:16-20 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:...
Mark 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Basically, when infants grow up in the next age, though never experiencing life in this present wicked age, will need to repent and be purged of the carnality in their own hearts.
Hope this helps,
Marques
EKnight:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on April 19, 2009, 10:24:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: EKnight on April 19, 2009, 10:07:33 PM ---I didn't mean to say the Elect will be sinful at the resurrection(resurrection comes after physical death), I asked if they would still be sinners at the time of their death (physical death).
I die today, I am a sinner, and quite frankly, always will be. Therefore, how does one "endure to the end"?
As for the infants, I guess I just don't see how a child can mature, obviously spiritually (since we are talking about after physical death) when an infant has had no "life" experience, so to speak, nothing to repent of, nothing to learn or unlearn and nothing to be purified of. That's what the LOF is, a purification process.
BTW, I hope people see that this is an old thread that I came across because I first searched for an answer to this question and then resurrected this thread.
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Infants will mature (physically grow) in the next age in the same way they do now...they will grow up. But once their time of judgment begins, they must repent of all their carnality as they are still in the flesh in the next age. Remember, all forms of evil in a person comes from their heart...not from outside the person.
Matt 15:16-20 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:...
Mark 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.[/b]
Basically, when infants grow up in the next age, though never experiencing life in this present wicked age, will need to repent and be purged of the carnality in their own hearts.
Hope this helps,
Marques
--- End quote ---
An infant that dies will be dead (unaware/sleeping) until the resurrection, right? At the resurrection we are raised with spiritual bodies, right?
How can a spiritual body physically grow?
Perhaps I am confused about the process of the resurrection altogether? ??? ???
Eileen
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: EKnight on April 20, 2009, 06:36:15 AM ---An infant that dies will be dead (unaware/sleeping) until the resurrection, right? At the resurrection we are raised with spiritual bodies, right?
How can a spiritual body physically grow?
Perhaps I am confused about the process of the resurrection altogether? ??? ???
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Infants are raised in physical bodies...then they grow & mature into adults who will have carnal minds (seeing they are still of the flesh). Then their judgment begins when they learn to repent of their carnal heart & mind.
Infants are carnal in nature...though they are unaware of this, their focus is themselves...always. They don't care how tired their mom is, weary their dad is...when they want something, that's all that matters. That's carnal, plain & simple.
Try this letter from Ray regarding resurrected bodies: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
Marques
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