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[lilitalienboi16]

I havn't read the entire thread but here is an important scripture, and i believe it will help you better understand Gods power, even over spiritual biengs. Here is what God says about His creation.

"For the creature [SATAN IS A CREATURE/CREATION OF GOD] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY [Not of our own 'free' will.],but by reason of Him[thats.. God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature [SATAN] itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

God bless,

Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat,

I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.

Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.

Isa 14:6-15

• v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth. 
• v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
• v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
• v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
• v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
• v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
• v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
• v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
• v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?

Love to you,

Darren

As far as I remember, the word "lucifer" has already been proven to be added in where the word "howl" should go. I'm not going to go into detail, but what kind of spiritual meaning are you looking for with "howl"?

-Beau

Darran, brother, the reason why LUCIFER and THE KING OF BABYLON is not spiritual of satan, is because satan does not go to HELL [THE GRAVE.]

He is a spiritual bieng, he will never die and end up in the grave as the rest of us do, or atleast as i see it, and that is why ray says there is no connection in that verse with that to satan.

God bless,

Alex

[DuluthGA]

Here to quote part of an email response from Ray:

"And if Satan was a "blunder" in God's creation then God is NOT PERFECT.  If God didn't create Satan for the purpose he is now fulfilling, then God DIDN’T KNOW ALL, and God IS NOT ALL WISE AND ALL-KNOWING. And God LIED when He said that EVERYTHING HE CREATED WAS GOOD!!! Etc., etc., etc."

The Scriptural back-up would In Isaiah 27: 1a we learn the serpent gets punished:

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;

As well as John 16: 11 that Arcturus put forth which are Christ's words about Satan's judgment.

Following Ray's line of thought... as he has said somewhere else... you can get condemned, destroyed, lost, perished, damned, punished, etc., but God's plan is for ALL to make it.

As a side note, Andy, I am uncertain whether Isasiah 40: 26 refers to evil spirits.  I think not, but rather to evil men.  I could be wrong.

Cheers, Caregiver