Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TimothyVI]

I have read through Ray's paper on the trinity three times now. Isn't that ironic?
I agree wholeheartedly with what he says. I have never found the concept of the trinity
to be anywhere in scriptures.

The reason trinitarians to come up with that concept was to reconcile the command of Jesus
that we worship no other God.
Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
If this is true then how could you pray to another God the Father?

I still struggle with how we can obey that command and still worship God the father
unless they are the same. I know that they are not. I believe every word that Jesus spoke in scripture that recognizes
that He is not as great as the Father, that He can do nothing without the Father, that he is
in fact not the Father. I also understand how he can be one with the Father and still not be the Father.
I am just confused as to why Jesus would tell us in Exd. to have no other God before HIm, and then later
teach us to pray to His Father God.

If Ray clearly explained this in his paper, then I clearly missed it.

Could someone help.

Tim

[Jrila]

i want to share some important verses that prove jesus and the holy spirit are both god. by the way just because the word trinity isn't in the bible doesn't mean there's a such thing, just like that bible you read the term bible isn't in the bible lol   


these verses i want u to consider and get back at me and tell me what u think!

ok lets start with the holy spirit 
acts 5:3-5 then peter siad, "ananias, how is it that satan has so filled youre heart that u have lied to the holy spirit and have kept yourself some of the money you receieved for the land ? you have not lied to men but to God


now lets talk about jesus
isaiah 9:6 a child is born to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. and he will be called wonderfull counselor, mighty God, eternal father, prince of peace.


now jesus siad the father is greater than him because he came as a servant. the master is always greater than the servant in status, but not in the essence. just like a man is greater than a woman in status but not in the essence.

[Beloved]

Ray did a great job expounding this very topic at the Nashville Conference. They recorded his talk so hopefully it will not be too long before you can hear it. He also gave out a great handout with just some of the scriptures that support why there is one God.

Beloved

 

[kudeta]

Jrila,

I think you misunderstand the point about the "Trinity."  The Holy Spirit is sometimes a way of referring to God, a manifestation of God.  It is in no sense an additional being.

When God manifests as a Burning Bush, and as a Pillar of Cloud, do we point and say, "Oh, look!  A Fourth and Fifth being that comprise God!  I guess we've got a Holy Pentity!"?

Of course we don't, because there's simply no reason to do so.  The Burning Bush and Pillar of Cloud, just like the Holy Spirit, are never discussed as being distinct Beings from YHWH.

1 Cor 8:5  For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
1 Cor 8:6  yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Blessings,
 - John

[Jrila]

kudeta,

the name Lord is the name god gave to jesus lets read john 17:11 holy father protect them by the power of your name-the name u gave me. what name is that? LORD! 

brother there isnt three GODS. i agree with that. theres only one God even the demons know that and shudder, but our human minds cant understand how the father, son, and holy spirit are God. think of it like this brother, the sun has three rays right? u have a invisible ray, u cant see. a visible ray, u can see. and a heating ray u can feel right? does that make it three suns? the sun has three different roles, but its still one sun. another thing jesus is God in physical form, the holy spirit is god in spiriual form.

think about it brother if there is no jesus how can we ever see God in physical form? God is a spirit. if theres no holy spirit how can god live in us??? gen 1:26- let us make man in our image, who is our? isaiah 6:8 then i heard the voice of the lord saying,"whom shall i send? and who will go for us. who is us??

now lets read zechariah 14:9- the lord will be king over the whole earth. on that day there will be one lord, and his name the only name.

u see at the end of the age, were not going to see the holy spirit, or the father, were going to see jesus christ reigning on the throne of david forever! why because jesus is the father and he's the holy spirit. lets look over these two last verses i wanna share. 


john 14 :17 the world cannot except him, because it neither sees him or knows him. but you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

well who was living with them at the time? Jesus! how does jesus live in us? through the holy spirit. so wouldnt you say jesus lives in us in spiritual form??? he surley cant live in us in physical form.

 
and before i share this other verse look at it like this u say the holy spirit isnt equal to God right? look at the bible brother in the old testament it was all about the Father right? he played a dominate role ok. in the new testament jesus played a predominate role. now the holy spirit is playing the dominate role.

by the way jesus is the  permanant manifestation of God. and the Holy spirit manifested is jesus christ. 1corin 3:17 now the lord is the spirit, and where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom.

what does that tell me and you? the holy spirit is omnipresent.  now lets see if the holy spirit is omniscient.

1corin 2:10-the spirit searches all things, even the deep things of god. well there u have it show me some verses that prove otherwise but int'll then have a blessed week

God bless Brother

[kudeta]

but our human minds cant understand how the father, son, and holy spirit are God.

Appeals to mystery, comments that "it's just too hard for us to understand" are signs of dogmatism.  We should never just shrug and declare that something cannot be known.

think of it like this brother, the sun has three rays right? u have a invisible ray, u cant see. a visible ray, u can see. and a heating ray u can feel right? does that make it three suns? the sun has three different roles, but its still one sun.

It is not at all the case that there are three rays.  There is one ray that we sense in two ways.  I don't even know what you are trying to say by "invisible ray."

think about it brother if there is no jesus how can we ever see God in physical form? God is a spirit. if theres no holy spirit how can god live in us???

God is Spirit, yes.  Do you even realize that you keep describing two aspects of God while claiming there are three?  Heat and Light, Spirit and Physical.  You aren't in any way making a case for a third Person.

well who was living with them at the time? Jesus! how does jesus live in us? through the holy spirit. so wouldnt you say jesus lives in us in spiritual form???

His Spirit is in us.  That's it.  Not, "There's a third person of God which is the Spirit who Jesus uses to live in us."  Do you see the difference?  How scripture says the first, and doesn't even hint at the second?

and before i share this other verse look at it like this u say the holy spirit isnt equal to God right?

The Holy Spirit isn't COequal, because He is not a seperate person.

look at the bible brother in the old testament it was all about the Father right? he played a dominate role ok. in the new testament jesus played a predominate role. now the holy spirit is playing the dominate role.

No.  Jesus is Lord.  He has not faded into the background.

what does that tell me and you? the holy spirit is omnipresent.  now lets see if the holy spirit is omniscient.

1corin 2:10-the spirit searches all things, even the deep things of god.

The Spirit is God, not a seperate person.

well there u have it show me some verses that prove otherwise but int'll then have a blessed week

Prove other than what?  You haven't offered your side.  You keep saying the Holy Spirit is God, when I have consistantly agreed with that.  What you have not done is discuss the Trinity.  At all.

You don't need to explain your theory to me.  I understand it, as far as it is comprehensible.  What you need to do, if you want this conversation to be of any value, is to describe WHY you think the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from God or Jesus.  WHY do you think there's a Trinity?

Do you understand?

Blessings,
 - John

[Jrila]

oh ok i see what youre saying why do i think ther distintive because there are three that bear witness brother. it doesnt say two,three! were not baptized in the name of the father and son only but also in the holy spirit. brother i see what ur saying but please realize this i believe its god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit, there roles are differnt. god the fathers role was to redeem israel because of the covenant he made with jacob and abraham. god the sons role was to die for humankind so that we may have access to the father once again and to be a role model for us to follow. the holy spirits role is to convict the world of sin, and to dwell in believers to finish christ work, and to bulid up the church,

so u see the holy spirit is the third person of the god head. they are the same but they are distinctive in works you get me and its important that we know this because to say he is god is good but to say he's not equal to god sends confusing messages to the listener.

but yeah brother i see what ur saying and im kind of new here so i really dont know how to respond like the way u do.


god bless brother!

[kudeta]

Jrila,

I'm going to stop responding in the other thread, because it's pretty pointless to split the conversation like this.

why do i think ther distintive because there are three that bear witness brother. it doesnt say two,three!

This was decisively answered in the other thread.  The verse was modified from the original, which does not mention the heavenly witnesses.

so u see the holy spirit is the third person of the god head. they are the same but they are distinctive in works you get me and its important that we know this because to say he is god is good but to say he's not equal to god sends confusing messages to the listener.

"The Spirit" refers to God.  So does "the LORD," "Master," "The Shepherd," "The Almighty," and "The Holy One."

Are each of these Persons comprising God?  No.  They are names for God, they are ways to talk about God, they are not seperate Beings that together form God.

What you are doing when you talk about the "Trinity" is to pick out one name and grant it the status of personhood.  You call it coequal with the Father and Son.  THERE IS NO REASON TO DO THIS.  It makes no more sense to call the Spirit the third Person of Tri-God than it would to call the Shepherd the fourth Person of tetra-God, or the Holy One the fifth Person of penta-God, etc, etc.

to say he is god is good but to say he's not equal to god sends confusing messages to the listener.

I do not say that the Holy Spirit is not equal to God.  I say the Holy Spirit is God, and not a seperate Person.  I have said it many, many times already.  If you are confused, it is because you are adding to what I am saying.

but yeah brother i see what ur saying

It... really doesn't seem like you do.

im kind of new here so i really dont know how to respond like the way u do.

Oh, there's certainly no need to do the quote,reply,quote,reply thing.  I do it because it normally helps me be a bit more precise.

Blessings,
 - John

[jerreye]

Jrila: You say "oh ok i see what youre saying why do i think ther distintive because there are three that bear witness brother. it doesnt say two,three! were not baptized in the name of the father and son only but also in the holy spirit. "

Actually, none of this is true. 1 John 5:7 and Matt 28:19 ("...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") are complete fabrications of the Roman Catholic Church. Almost every translation out there (with the exception of a couple, including the KJV) has omitted 1 John 5:7, and correctly so. This passage was added in the 15th century! Not one manuscript prior to the 15th century contains this passage. There are TWO that bear witness, the Father and the SON, Whom BOTH have the same SPIRIT. When the phrase "Holy Spirit" is used, it is talking about the POWER/INFLUENCE of God (ie - the workings/attributes of God, Who IS the Holy Spirit). It was the POWER OF GOD that was poured out on the apostles, not a "person". A "person" cannot be "poured", but POWER and INFLUENCE can!

Why did Jesus tell us that if a man blasphemes the Son, that it shall be forgiven men, but if a man blasphemes the HOLY SPIRIT, it will NOT (in this age or the next age)? Is the so-called "person" of the "Holy Spirit" more sensitive and more unforgiving than Jesus? Hardly The reason that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is much worse than blaspheming Jesus Himself is because you are blaspheming the very source of Christ's power and works! That power and source is the SPIRIT of the Father (which was given to His Son). To say that His power came from the devil and NOT His Father is a HUGE SIN!

As for Matt 28:19, this was added in and around the 3rd century. It also completely contradicts many scriptures.

Here is a EXCELLENT snippet from the following URL which proves that Matthew 28:19 is spurious and has no place in the scriptures (sorry if it is long, but it is well worth the read):
(From: http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew2819.html)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ONE TEST is that of the CONTEXT

Examining the context, we find that in the AV the sense of the passage is hindered, but if we read as under, the whole context fits together and the tenor of the instruction is complete:

"All power is given unto ME ... go therefore... baptizing in MY name, teaching them... whatsoever I have commanded... I am with you..."


ANOTHER TEST is that of FREQUENCY

Is the phrase "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" used elsewhere in Scripture? NOT ONCE!

Did Jesus use the phrase "in my name" on other occasions? YES! 17 times!
Matthew 18:5, 20; 24:5
Mark 9:37, 39, 41; 13:6; 16:17
Luke 9:48; 21:8
John 14:13, 14, 26; 15:16; 16:23, 24, 26, etc..


ANOTHER TEST is that of ARGUMENT

Is any argument is Scripture based on the fact of the threefold name, or of baptism in the threefold name?

None whatever!

Is any argument in Scripture based on the fact of baptism in the name of Jesus?

Yes! This is the argument in 1 Cor. 1:13:

"Is Christ divided?

Was Paul crucified for you?

Were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

From this argument, if carefully analyzed, it will appear that believers ought to be baptized in the name of that One who was crucified for them. The Father, in His amazing love, gave us His beloved Son, who by the Spirit was raised to incorruptibility, but it is the Lord Himself who was crucified, and in HIS name, therefore, must believers be baptized in water.

Dr. Thomas says: "There is but one way for a believer of the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the Name of Jesus the Christ, to put him on, or to be invested with his name, and that is, by immersion into his name. Baptism is for this specific purpose" [Revealed Mystery, Art. XLIV].

"There is none other name under heaven" no other name or names "given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

"As for its significance: baptism is linked inseparably with the death of Christ it is the means of the believer's identification with the Lord's death" [God's Way, p190].

Now the Father did not die, nor did the Spirit.

"Buried with him" (not the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) Rom. 6:3-5.

Robert Roberts uses this argument: "According to trine-immersion, it is not sufficient to be baptized into the Son. Thus Christ is displaced from his position as the connecting link-the door of entrance the 'new and living way.' And thus there are three names under heaven whereby we must be saved, in opposition to the apostolic declaration, 'that there is none other name (other than the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth) under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" [The True Nature of Baptism, p. 13].

This, of course, is the same argument as Paul's (see above), and although R.R. did not so intend, his argument is equally effective against the use of the triune name as against the practice of triune-immersion. Were ye baptized in the name of Paul, or the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or in any other name that displaces Christ from his position as the 'connecting link,' as the ONLY name for salvation? That is the argument, and confirms the genuine text of Matthew 28:19 to contain the phrase "in my name."


ANOTHER TEST is that of ANALOGY

Is there anything in Scripture analogous to baptism in the Trine name?

NO!

Is there anything analogous to baptism in the name of Jesus?
YES! The Father sent the Holy Spirit and baptized the waiting disciples with the Spirit in the name of Jesus. John 14:26. There is a reason for this. The Holy Spirit is the promise (Acts 2:33) which Christ received on ascending to the Father and only those who were in the corporate body of Christ, the Ecclesia, which is His Body-only those could receive the Gift, and only because they were in that one Body. The Lord Jesus Christ is the "connecting link" both for baptism in water and for baptism in spirit" [John 3:5].


ANOTHER TEST is that of CONSEQUENCE

In being baptized, do we put on the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

NO!

Do we put on the name of Jesus?

Dr. Thomas wrote: "Believers of the Gospel Jesus preached are justified by faith through HIS name; that is, their Abrahamic faith and disposition are counted to them for repentance and the remission of sins, in the act of putting on the name of Jesus, the Christ" [Revealed Mystery, Art. XLIII].

The Lord said, "I am in my Father, and ye in me" [John 14:20]. Not until the Thousand years have passed, and the Lord Jesus Christ returns his "Kingdom to God, even the Father" 1 Co. 15:24-28, shall God be all and in all. Till then we may not aspire to be "in the Father."

Believers bear the name of JESUS now, and so that name is not mentioned in Re. 3:12. Believers do not now bear the name of the Father, nor the new name of Jesus, nor the name of the City of God, but these three names are promised to the faithful. Then, not now, shall we bear the name of the Father.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Craig]

Jrila I suggest you do a few things.

1)  Read the forum Rules and how it is moderated

      http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
      http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

2)  Read Rays study on this subject.  And many emails

     http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

3)  Listen to Rays latest audio on Christ, located at the bottom

     http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Craig

[mari_et_pere]

Kudeta,
You wrote,

When God manifests as a Burning Bush, and as a Pillar of Cloud, do we point and say, "Oh, look!  A Fourth and Fifth being that comprise God!  I guess we've got a Holy Pentity!"?

Of course we don't, because there's simply no reason to do so.  The Burning Bush and Pillar of Cloud, just like the Holy Spirit, are never discussed as being distinct Beings from YHWH.

I just wanted to give you kudos for that excellent explanation. It's really good. Anyone who can't understand that must not be reading it. 

Matt

[sansmile]

Hi all,

I have deliberated over responding to this thread, but i am, so, i will say what i feel, and i ask the moderators to decide wether to allow or not.
This topic to me, is not of this forum. I do realise we have guests that post but, we in here, i believe ,have been giving Gods truth and the trinity is unscriptural, it's a lie. So, why do we keep going over it, Ray has written enough on this topic and if people can't see it, then it is God that is blinkering them at this time. We all know that sometimes we can't see a particular truth when we want to, but God in His time if we are truly searching His truths will reveal.
While reading this thread this scripture came to mind:

(2Jo 1:10)  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

And (to pick up on th other thread of edifying our brothers and sisters)  am i wrong to think this way???


God Bless
Sandie

[seminole]

Is it really necessary to debate the word trinity. I am not saying the debate should or should not happen. That is up to all involved. Will it make a difference in any life? Just curious.

[YellowStone]

Sandie and Seminole,

What say you, if what is read by one searching for the truth, reaches out to God for understanding and God removes some of the blinders and the light of truth floods the world wary soul. I know I have learned way more from such discussions than I would ever had imagined.

Are we by stopping such discussions as this, helping or hindering the spirit of truth?

Sometimes, it is just best to let things run their course, until at least the topic gets ut of hand.

Well that is how I see it.

Love to you both,
Darren

[seminole]

Discussion will bring a positive or a negative result. By all means discuss to create the positive outcome of better understanding. I hope my comment did not lead anyone to believe that I think the discussion should not happen.
Seminole

[mari_et_pere]

Something that I've learned from this forum is that joining a discussion (or thread) and participating in it can not only teach one new things, but highten awareness of biblical truths and/or lies.

I used to just lurk here, reading. But once I actually got involved, man it's awesome! It makes you realize what you believe, what other's believe, you can help others as they help you, it's just awesome. I would never ever ask anyone to stop talking on here as long as it's evident that they are being sincere. (Buy my book at buymybook.com doesn't fit. know what i'm sayin?)

Let the newbies ask questions and make comments. What's wrong with that? Heck let the heroes ask and comment too. It may just be your response that God wants to use to help open that person's eyes. I've seen it happen. I've had it happen to me! I've been blessed to help someone on here that way and I was on cloud 9 man. Awesome.

So who cares if certain people think it's a stupid question? You don't have to answer it. And who cares if a certain thread changes topic midway and switches to something totally different? That's what conversations normally do right? I say keep talking. "Fellowshipping" if you prefer. 

Peace

Matt

[jER]

There are three elements to man; his body, the spirit and soul.

   “And the Lord God formed man (his physical body) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit);”…

   “…and man became a living soul.” [with a mind, will and emotions] (Gen.2:7)

Questions: (mostly - out of curiosity)

Do the two (physical/spirit) make three?  Are the three (essentially) two?
And, without one of the two, is there three?
If the body dies, and our spirit returns to God, does not the soul cease to be?
Did only - Jesus’ body die (or, did his soul cease to be - while His Spirit returned to the Father)?
Is God not Spirit and was Christ not flesh?  Does, God and Christ have a soul?
Is the comforter, the Spirit of Christ which He sent after, ascending?
Why was the Spirit given, afterwards? But not during the physical presence of Christ?

There is indeed only one God; The Father, and one Lord; Jesus Christ.

 “…And when All Things [includes humanity] shall be Subdued unto him, then shall the Son [Jesus]also himself be Subject unto Him [God, the Father] that put All Things under him [Jesus], that God will be All in All.” (I Cor.15:28)

Otherwise, please explain I Cor. 15:28?

In His Love

[hillsbororiver]

Hi jER,

The 2 parts (body, spirit) equal 1 soul. Take away either and you have death. This is one equation that reads 1 (body) + 1 (breath of life/spirit) = 1 (soul).

When you mix flour and water you have dough, 1 result comprised of 2 elements, you do not have 3 elements, take away the flour and you have only water, take away the water and you are left with flour. In either case there can be no dough without both elements but the combination of the 2 parts creates one result not 3.

The soul ceases to be, but the spirit, the breath of life returns to God, the body returns to dust.

I am sorry but I do not understand how this ties into 1Cor 15:28, could you please clarify the question? At the culmination of the ages, when Christ has saved all, He will then present the Father with the Sons and Daughters He has desired from the beginning and who Christ was commissioned to bring to Him, then creation (including our Lord) will be subject to the Father and He will be All in All. What a glorious promise to contemplate!

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi jER,

Here are a few emails of Ray's that I think will answer most of your questions on body, spirit, and soul.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html --------

Dear Waylan:

    It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.

    God be with you,
    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ---------

Dear John:
    Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
    God be with you,
    Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------

Did only - Jesus’ body die (or, did his soul cease to be - while His Spirit returned to the Father)?
Is God not Spirit and was Christ not flesh?  Does, God and Christ have a soul?
Is the comforter, the Spirit of Christ which He sent after, ascending?
Why was the Spirit given, afterwards? But not during the physical presence of Christ?

Jesus died, body and soul, His spirit did return to the Father until He was resurrected.

Luke 23:46  And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And when He had said this, He breathed out the spirit.

Jesus Christ and the Father are One.

John 10:30  "I and the Father are one!"

God's spirit is the Holy Spirit, Christ is the same Spirit.  While on earth in the flesh Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit.

John 4:24  God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

While Jesus was alive on earth He repersented the Father in every way, as they were One.  
It was by His death that we were reconciled to God and by His rersurrection are we given hope of a resurrection to life also.
  
Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1Co 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
v. 21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
v. 23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

Now with Christ having prepared the way, all can receive life.  In this age only the very few receive the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14), through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is Christ(and the Father, because they are One) that lives in us.

John 15:26  And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

I hope this helped with your questions  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mrsnacks]

Hi everyone:
 
I have been listening to the Nashville conference and Ray makes an excellent point.
at the end or beginning of Paul's writings , he never mentions the Holy Spirit and acknowledges the Holy Spirit as a separate person. The Holy Spirit is left out. Paul will say for example : "Our God and our Lord Jesus Christ ...." It seems if the Holy Spirit is a person , He is getting the short end from Paul because He isn't mentioned. If there is a trinity and all are equal and are 3 persons then shouldn't Paul say --- Our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. And Paul doesn't do that at all. He mentions the Father and the Son only.