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Author Topic: All things  (Read 2983 times)

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hillsbororiver

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All things
« on: December 03, 2006, 02:12:49 PM »

Ephesians 1:10 (King James Version)

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

1 Corinthians 15 (King James Version)

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Philippians 3 (King James Version)

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 1 (King James Version)


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Ephesians 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.)

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hebrews 2:8 (King James Version)

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

There is much more where this came from.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe





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Joey Porter

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Re: All things
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 10:55:16 PM »

What gets me is when folks try to somehow foolishly insist that the "all things" in Colossians 1:20 is not the same "all things" in Colossians 1:16.
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YellowStone

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Re: All things
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 12:11:57 AM »

Great post Joe :)

I understand where you are coming from with "All Things."

However, I do have a question on Hebrews 2:14 regarding the word "destroy."

Hbr 2:14  (KJ)
  • Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


Destroy - katargeo {kat-arg-eh'-o} 2673

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

    a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
    b) to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

    a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
    b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
    c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Authorized Version (KJV) Katargeo Translation Count — Total: 27
  • Destroy 5,
  • do away 3,
  • abolish 3,
  • cumber 1,
  • loose 1,
  • cease 1,
  • fall 1,
  • vanish away 1,
  • deliver 1,
  • misc 11;


What do you make of Pauls use of "katargeo"? (using #1 and #2 primary meanings from Strongs)

If Satan were rendered idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative or was ceased, ended, done away with, annulled or abolished, can one really make the connection to being saved?

Joe, no disrespect to you, but I simply cannot make the link. If the word meant "transformed", "transposed" or "reshapened" to give just a few, then there could be no side stepping the fact.

I think we both agree that "All in All" means living or functioning. Are we sure that Satan will be either?

Just my thoughts,

Darren
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eggi

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Re: All things
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 07:39:50 AM »

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:22-28 KJV)

About the word "all"

Only members of the human race can die in Adam, which would then mean that only members of the human race can be made alive in Christ. The word "all" then changes focus, as Paul goes on to say that Christ must reign, until he has put ALL enemies under His feet. Paul cannot possibly be speaking only about the human race anymore, because he says that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. The only exception to the word all (which includes ALL) is the Father.

About the word "destroy"

We know that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. How does one destroy something corruptible? How does one destroy death? Well, by putting on incorruption and immortality! Then the saying that is written will be brought to pass, Death is swallowed up in victory. Death is no more, because it is changed to incorruption and immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1Co 15:54 KJV)

Aren't we also destroyed before we are changed and brought into God's family? Of course we are not destroyed in the sense that we will no longer exist, we are simply changed. This is the way God in His wisdom has done it!
We are first made incomplete and spiritually weak:

And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. (Jer 18:4 KJV)

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:49-52 KJV)

Satan is a necessary evil, believe it or not:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:1-10 KJV)

So what is it then, will Satan also be changed? Well, he has to be changed because he will enter the Lake of Fire. Will Satan be the only one who is not changed in the Lake of Fire? Will everyone else be purified in the Lake of Fire, except Satan?

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10 KJV)

Notice that the beast and the false prophet are also in the Lake of Fire, along with anyone whose names are not found in the book of life.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 KJV)

Death will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be done away with, changed from death to deathlessness.

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 15:56-57 KJV)

Sin will be done away with, because there will be no sinners anymore.
If the Lake of Fire is a purifying process (with an end to it), then this has to be true also for Satan and his angels.

I don't agree that this is just a small issue, a "who cares?" subject. However, I'm not trying to be dogmatic, and I am in no way trying to beat anyone in their heads with what I believe. If I am wrong about this, I'm ready to stand corrected!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 09:52:47 AM by eggi »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: All things
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 09:39:12 AM »

Great post eggi,

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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brothertoall

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Re: All things
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 09:49:07 AM »

Part of the hope I have in Christ Jesus is that ALL things will be made new in and through Him.

 My hope is that there will be no more pain,crying,disappointments,hatred,homelessness,poverty,discease,sin,deciet,etc...

I believe that God has the power and authority to abolish all that.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

bobby

 


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YellowStone

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Re: All things
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 09:51:08 AM »

Joe and Eggi,

I gues I am deeply saddened. For eggie wrote:

I don't agree that this is just a small issue, a "who cares?" subject.

I guess this is a pivotal issue after all and somehow I am less of person in both of your eyes.

Why should I be forced to Care what any other thinks when my focus is on the love that God is constantly giving me and what I am showing others.

Do tou both really care that I don't necessarily believe because God has not yet opened my eyes to see.

In God I trust,
Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Re: All things
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 10:19:47 AM »

Darren,

You absolutely not "less of a person" because of any disagreement or because of a difference in understanding. You are a valued member here. I am sure there are many here that would agree.

My response to eggi was a "well done" for the work he obviously put into his post.

His Peace to you my Brother,

Joe   

 
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YellowStone

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Re: All things
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 10:30:58 AM »

Joe,

My last post was in no way an attack on you or eggi. :)

I just want to demostrate the futility of debating obscure doctrine (not clearly defined or pivotal to the truth)

Of course I know that God has all power and can do anything he wants. My question is, just because he can, does not mean he must.

This concept of "can - must" is limiting God.

I am open to idea of Satan being "saved" it is just that God has not granted me complete understanding on the subject.

How about this for a concept. I believe God is in everything, but I do not believe that God is in Satan. God created Satan but is not in Satan because there is no truth (God is truth) in him.

After the Lake of Fire, what is left? Remember the possible meaning of the word destryed? ANULLED

Main Entry: an·nul
Pronunciation: &-'n&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): an·nulled; an·nul·ling
Etymology: Middle English annullen, from Anglo-French annuller, from Late Latin annullare, from Latin ad- + nullus not any -- more at NULL
1 : to reduce to nothing : OBLITERATE
2 : to make ineffective or inoperative : NEUTRALIZE <annul the drug's effect>
3 : to declare or make legally invalid or void <wants the marriage annulled>

Do you see my point. God will still be all in all, but there is no Satan.

Once again, this is not a pivotal issue and I will post again the words of Paul

Philippians 3:12-16
12 - Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 - Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 - I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 - All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
16 - Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

I think this little debate has run it's cause, at least from my perspective.

Love to All,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 10:32:24 AM by YellowStone »
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eggi

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Re: All things
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 10:47:14 AM »

Darren,

You say:

Quote
I guess this is a pivotal issue after all and somehow I am less of person in both of your eyes.

I said no such thing! You are not less of a person in my eyes! Nobody is less of a person in my eyes.

Here is how I see it:

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Rom 14:1-4 KJV)

You say that you are forced to care about what others think. How can you suggest that I'm forcing you to care about it? It is completely out of my hands to force you to even consider what I'm writing.

As I said in my post:
I am in no way trying to beat anyone in their heads with what I believe. If I am wrong about this, I'm ready to stand corrected!

Darren, I'm sorry you were deeply saddened by my post. It is not pleasant to hear that someone was offended deeply by something you said. However, I know that I did not mean to even suggest that you are less of a person. This is something that you read into the words that I wrote. As much as I would want you to not do that, it is really out of my control.

I, for one, do not know everything about the Scriptures. I don't possess all wisdom and knowledge. That doesn't mean that I should just settle with what I know, and just stop there. It is true, we should hold on to what we know, but we should also progress:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. (Heb 6:1-3 KJV)

"Leaving the principles" does not suggest that we forget about them. Paul is saying that there is more to know, always more to learn. This we will do, if God permits. I'm well aware of the fact that God has revealed the things I know to me, it is not of myself. Therefore I know that there is a possibility that I might wake up tomorrow and these truths will be taken away from me. This is in itself a motivation to continue the walk, to work on the salvation with fear and trembling:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phi 2:12 KJV)

So again Darren, I'm sorry for offending you, and forgive me for hurting you deeply. Remember this:

Working out our salvation is not of us, but of Him that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phi 2:13).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 10:51:19 AM by eggi »
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

hillsbororiver

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Re: All things
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2006, 10:52:31 AM »

Part of the hope I have in Christ Jesus is that ALL things will be made new in and through Him.

 My hope is that there will be no more pain,crying,disappointments,hatred,homelessness,poverty,discease,sin,deciet,etc...

I believe that God has the power and authority to abolish all that.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

bobby

 




Bobby,

Thank you for the great additions to this thread.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: All things
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 01:53:09 PM »

Hello everyone

Something special comes to light for me through this thread.

Only humans are begotten from above and will be born at our resurrection. This is what I have understood from LOF. We are not “born again” we are begotten not again, but from above. Jesus addressed this aspect of our being “born again of the spirit from above” as something for us not for angels or spirits.  Jesus was born as the Son of Man not son of angels, and of Son of God not of son of spirits. His presence on earth was for man kind not spirit kind.

Eggi, you wrote ; Only members of the human race can die in Adam, which would then mean that only members of the human race can be made alive in Christ. The word "all" then changes focus, as Paul goes on to say that Christ must reign, until he has put ALL enemies under His feet. Paul cannot possibly be speaking only about the human race anymore, because he says that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

For me that ties the one aspect of our humanity to the other aspect of our spiritual destination in Christ. It separates our journey from the angels or spirits who Christ’s elect will judge. No where does it say angels will judge us. No where does it say that angels or spirits are begotten from above or that they should be born again.

We know that God the Father is the Father of spirits. He is also the creator of mankind. So for me there are two distinctly different levels of existence. One as human and one as spirit. From what I am understanding from LOF, we are begotten from above and will be born again only at our resurrection. Humanity is different to spirits or demons. As for the spirit world of angels and demons which will be judged by the chosen who are called to be faithful to the end, I believe that they too, they will be made new and will be purged of evil but they are not begotten now as some of us are dragged, called and chosen by God to be. Also no where does it say that the angels or spirits will share the inheritance of Christ. This is for humankind only as far as I understand this. Humanities path  is different to the one of the spirit world. The elect called and chosen by God from out of humanity, will  judge the angels. Experiencing  authority over the spirit world now carries its caution to us from Christ that we should rejoice not in the fact that the spirits submit to us but that our names are written in the book of life.

We know that angel beings are beings subject to error for which they too will be judged for all will be judged and no one annihilated  by  God as the quick fix which is the method used by mankind when he uses so called ethnic cleansing to achieve his imaginary nirvana. Ref Adolph Hitler and more recent history the ethnic cleansing of Cerbs and Croats and Moslems : Yugoslavia. Jesus showed us that this is not His clean up method when He rebuked his disciples for asking His permission to use fire to consume those who did not welcome or receive Jesus as had done Elijah. 2 Kings 1 : 9-16 & Luke 9 : 55-56

It is difficult to get your head around the fact that God can transform someone so evil and so good at being evil as is Satan, into some thing new!
It challenges our perception of Gods power and ability that beacons us to believe that with God, all things are truly possible....but for man it is not.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: All things
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2006, 09:19:35 PM »

Joe,

My last post was in no way an attack on you or eggi. :)

I just want to demostrate the futility of debating obscure doctrine (not clearly defined or pivotal to the truth)

Of course I know that God has all power and can do anything he wants. My question is, just because he can, does not mean he must.

This concept of "can - must" is limiting God.

I am open to idea of Satan being "saved" it is just that God has not granted me complete understanding on the subject.

How about this for a concept. I believe God is in everything, but I do not believe that God is in Satan. God created Satan but is not in Satan because there is no truth (God is truth) in him.

After the Lake of Fire, what is left? Remember the possible meaning of the word destryed? ANULLED

Main Entry: an·nul
Pronunciation: &-'n&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): an·nulled; an·nul·ling
Etymology: Middle English annullen, from Anglo-French annuller, from Late Latin annullare, from Latin ad- + nullus not any -- more at NULL
1 : to reduce to nothing : OBLITERATE
2 : to make ineffective or inoperative : NEUTRALIZE <annul the drug's effect>
3 : to declare or make legally invalid or void <wants the marriage annulled>

Do you see my point. God will still be all in all, but there is no Satan.

Once again, this is not a pivotal issue and I will post again the words of Paul

Philippians 3:12-16
12 - Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 - Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 - I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 - All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
16 - Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

I think this little debate has run it's cause, at least from my perspective.

Love to All,
Darren

Hi Darren,

Maybe this will help a bit,

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy [annull] the works of the devil. [Satan]  1 John 3:8

It is not Satan that is destroyed....it is however His works that are anulled...this is certainly Good news!

Hope this is of some help

Chris R
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