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[nightmare sasuke]

This is what I posted on anther forum, it got deleted and I got banned though, tell me what you think:

There is definitely no rapture. It was not taught until the 1800s (from what I can tell). Jesus plainly tells us,

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken ... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat 24:29-31).

Jesus clearly says "after the tribulation of those days." Why? Because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God" (Act 14:22).

It's through much tribulation we enter into the kingdom of God, not through much rapture.

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 7:14).

To "enter into the kingdom of God," and make your robes "white in the blood of the Lamb," you must first go "through much tribulation," come "out of great tribulation," because "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev 2:7). You must be presented with something to overcome to "overcometh." The rapture theory strangles the Word of God by claiming the Christians will not have to overcome and will be raptured. These people do not understand the purpose of God's loving grace.

Grace chastens, it does not rapture.

"For the grace of God ... [is] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world..." (Tit 2:11-12).

The word translated teaching:

G3811
pa?de?´?
paideuo¯
pahee-dyoo'-o
From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

The word translated "teaching" is the very word used in the following verse:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [paideuo, the same word used in Tit 2:12], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" (Heb 12:6).

The lord scourges every son he receives; he does not rapture him.

For "...if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons" (Heb 12:.

To be raptured would make you a "*******" not a son, because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God."

Where is the kingdom of God? The "kingdom of God is within you" (Luk 17:21).

Many suggest Thessalonians refers to a rapture. However, the people that suggest this are merely twisting Gods words because they are failing "the grace of God," and are "********, and not sons," because they wish to "be without chastisement" and sneak their way into the kingdom of God without going "through much tribulation."

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Th 4:16).

This Scripture does not explain itself, because "no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation" (2Pe 1:20). We must find when these events Paul speaks of will happen by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1Co 2:13).

The event Paul speaks of in 1Th 4:16 apparently happens when "the Lord ... [descends] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..."

What does Jesus say? "[He] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet…" Jesus says "with a great sound of a trumpet." Paul says "and with the trump of God." Clearly these verses are a match. However, what else did Jesus say? "Immediately after the tribulation…" These events happen "after the tribulation", not before, because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God." All faith is tried with fire, "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (1Co 3:13). We all will be tried with fire and if we "overcometh" we will be rewarded. We all must be chastised (not raptured) and go through tribulation because "To him that overcometh will I [Christ] give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God…" To overcome you must first have something to overcome. What must we overcome? What must we come out of and go through to enter the kingdom of God? We must be tried by "fire," we must go through tribulation; we must be under grace and be chastened, for "if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons"!

Moreover, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1Co 15:52). Paul tells us again these events will occur at the last trump. Jesus and Paul both tell us these events happen when the trump of God is blown. And when does that happen? "Immediately after the tribulation…" When "shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"? (Mat 24:30). After the "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21); "Immediately after the tribulation…" (Mat 24:29).

Unfortunately, Christ tells us "…there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Mat 24:24). There are many false prophets amongst us today that have drowned us with their lies. What does Christ have to say about that? "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." Preachers worldwide are saying, look to the signs in the Middle East! And, not long and we will be raptured!  Jesus told us to "believe it not." Because "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mat 24:27). Nevertheless, "false prophets" who claim to have "prophesied in [Christs] name … and in [Christs] name … cast out devils … and in [Christs] name done many wonderful works…" (Mat 7:22) would like you to believe that the Son of man will not return "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west," but rather the Lord will make the Christians “*******â€? by not chastening them but instead taking them secretly out of the world.

Jesus said, "…if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not…" (Mar 13:21). Many preachers are saying "Lo, here" and "lo, there" and saying "the Lord will rapture us soon! We are in the end times!" What did Christ say? "…believe [them] not."

Will you "let [the modern day spiritual] Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us"? (2Ki 18:30). I won't because I know "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Act 14:22).

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.

Joe

[nightmare sasuke]

Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.

Joe

Do you agree tribulation is part of being under grace and is indeed a form of chastisement?

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.

Joe

Do you agree tribulation is part of being under grace and is indeed a form of chastisement?

Yes. Grace, sanctification, tribulation. So closely related, working in tandem. You got me thinking and searching here, I love this subject.

Joh 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
 
1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again, unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 
1Pe 1:4  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
 
1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
1Pe 1:6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
 
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
 
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
 
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
 
1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.

This really speaks to our experience in growing spiritually, the unspeakable joy, the tribulations and temptations that strengthen and prepare us, we actually are playing a part in our own creation!  

There are times when I feel the His Spirit and the Word becomes so clear that I am overjoyed at what He is showing me and accomplishing in me. I am gladdened and humbled by our Creator working each of us into sons and daughters, this is what I want to feel all the time, but that is only part of the process.

Then come the dark days, when things seem to go against me and I have trouble seeing and hearing what He is saying to me, as if the Spirit has been withdrawn a bit, I am engulfed in darkness so I can better appreciate the Light.

Where in times past when I was going through the tribulations my faith would suffer, I would have self pity or anger now I am aware of what I am supposed to learn, depend on Him, have faith in Him, not let the things of this world control me, letting go of that concern has freed my spirit, bringing Light into the darkness, peace to the mayhem, an order to the chaos.

 Praise Him!

Joe

[nightmare sasuke]

Moreover, we are to be like Christ and follow his example:

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me…� (Mat 8:22).
…
“Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction [without a rapture], and of patience� (Jam 5:10).
…
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps…� (1Pe 2:21).

Christ was an example. What is one thing that happened to Christ? He was crucified. Rather than being raptured, Jesus suffered “tribulation,� from the time he was tempted by Satan, up until the time he died on the cross. We are to be like Christ, and Christ did not take the easy way out. We are to be “crucified with Christ� (Gal 2:20).

“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come� (1Th 1:10). We are delivered from the wrath, which will purge the ungodly. “…Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;� (Isa 33:14-15). Everyone will be “salted with fire�, however, the elect will find no pain in it because they are already judged (purged) prior to death, because they have fallen into “the ground� and died. “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God� (Dan 3:25). God’s elect will all be “salted with fire� but they will “have no hurt� because those (the elect) that are able to “dwell with the devouring fire� are those that “walketh righteously.�

Moreover, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened� (Mat 24:22). The days are shorted for the elect, but the elect still must experience the days. However, my experience with Matt 24:22 is limited.

PS. Does anyone have more insight into Mat 24:22?

[orion77]

Hello nightmare and Joe.  Great thread and posts.  You all made my day, very well written and truthful.

Just getting ready to go to bed, now I can sleep in peace reading your posts.  Again thanks.

God bless,

Gary

[lilitalienboi16]

Even I knew the rapture was a bunch of hogwash the moment i heard it, and i was and still am a NOOB!!!!!!!!!111111111111111!!!!!!!!oneone!1111111!!11

[nightmare sasuke]

Even I knew the rapture was a bunch of hogwash the moment i heard it, and i was and still am a NOOB!!!!!!!!!111111111111111!!!!!!!!oneone!1111111!!11

Even in my heretic eternal torment days, I saw through the lies of various teachings, such as the rapture and trinity. You do not have to be a scholar to know such filth is far from the truth. However, the problem is, many of those that begin to have "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" rely on other "false prophets" for advice, thus being led away from the truth.

Hello nightmare and Joe.  Great thread and posts.  You all made my day, very well written and truthful.

Just getting ready to go to bed, now I can sleep in peace reading your posts.  Again thanks.

God bless,

Gary

Thank you. It's very nice to know that Joe and my writings were useful to you.

[Falconn003]

I wondered why the other side of rapture is not bettered study and thought of. As it would fit in better with what scripture says about all of us in general. And i am not even one bit refering to the taken of certain people.   I am in fact refering to the state of being in rapture, the emotion of intence. I feel this would open doors for better insight and perspectives.




Rodger

[undignifieddancer]

The Rapture has been selling books since the 1800's and it is big business now.  I believe it is used as a new "fear of God" weapon in all of this "left behind" nonsense.  Believers are afraid they will be left behind in situations that don't exist biblically.

Also it has created the "rambo" type image of God...which is exactly what some biggot churches want here in America.  Where is the love of God in these stories of the rapture??

Jesus was victorious as a fluffy lamb....who needs ROBOGOD to kick asses here on earth?

Today the rapture is all about the "$$$" not to mention its bad entertainment.

Ps... by the way, why do all of these prophecy dudes on TV have really bad hairdo's??  Is it the mark of the beast...hummm???  Just kidding...I actually have no hair...so I must be jealous.

Peace

[ertsky]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

that cracked me up undignified dancer

nice one

hows benny hinns hair going these days ?  i've been expecting it to split from benny and start it's own fleecing ministry for years now

f

[orion77]

I hear ya, undignifieddancer.  :lol:  :lol:

Vanity, oh the vanity of it!

Fancy hairdos, expensive suits, gold watches and rings, and their fancy props behind them on TV.  It is still not enough, they want it all.


2Tim 3:1
Now this |know, that in the last days perilous periods will be |present~,

2Tim 3:2
for *humanmen will be selfish, fond of money, ostentatious, proud, calumniators, stubborn to parents, ungrateful, malign,

2Tim 3:3
without natural affection, implacable, adversaries, uncontrollable, fierce, averse to the good,

2Tim 3:4
traitors, rash, oconceited~, fond of their own gratification rather than fond of God;

2Tim 3:5
having a form of devoutness, yet odenying~ its *power.

2Tim 3:6
These, also, |shun~. For out of these are *those who are slipping in into *homes and are leading into captivity little women, oheaped~ with sins, being led~ by various lusts and gratifications,

2Tim 3:7
always learning and yet not at any time |able~ to |come into a realization of the truth.

2Tim 3:8
Now, by the method by which Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses, thus these also are withstanding~ the truth, humanmen of a |depraved~ *mind, disqualified aboutas to the faith.

2Tim 3:9
But they shall not be progressing on more, for their *folly shall be obvious to all, as *that of those also became~.

2Tim 3:10
Now you'  fully follow me in my *teaching, *motive, *purpose, *faith, *patience, *love, *endurance,

2Tim 3:11
*persecutions, *sufferings, such as occurred~ to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra: persecutions such as I _oundergo, and out of them all the Lord rescues~ me.

2Tim 3:12
And all yet *who are wanting to |live devoutly in Christ Jesus shall be |persecuted.

2Tim 3:13
Yet wicked humanmen and swindlers shall |wax on *worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived~.


God bless,

Gary

[Andrew]

2Tim 3:13
Yet wicked humanmen and swindlers shall |wax on *worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived~.

This is so true. In fact Benny Hinn was on TBN recently, growling and snarling, praying for a curse to be placed on his enemies.( any who comes against his ministry) and thousands still support him.

[ertsky]

perhaps i should sleep with a pair of hair clippers under my pillow in case bennies hair comes for me to avenge my mocking

i was always surprised none of those guys claimed this following verse was a reference to their hairdos

Son 6:5  Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead.


  :lol:

just having a laugh y'all

benny can have a jest at my expense any time he likes, if he can stop with the growling snarling and cursing that is.

[rvhill]

I can't help but laugh every time I watch TBN. I can't help but remember In Living Color.




We can forgive any sin for just 99.95. Call now and get a two for one special.

[orion77]

They are having a special passover gift (tithe), for the passover angel.  Receive great blessings for a gift or a curse if you don't.  Absolutely amazing, do these people who promote such things honestly believe these things or are they truly con-artists.  Seems to me they have gotten worse the last couple of years.

1Ki 21:20
And Ahab said unto Elijah,  `Have you found me, O mine enemy?'  and he said,  `I have found--because of your selling yourself to do the evil thing in the eyes of Yahweh;

Nah 3:4
Because of the many prostitutions of the prostitute, good of grace and possessor of enchantments, who is selling nations by her prostitutions, and families by her enchantments.

Amos 2:6
Thus says Yahweh, Due to three transgressions of Israel, and due to four, I will not turn it back, due to their selling the righteous for silver, and the needy for the sake of a pair of sandals.

Jn 2:16
And to those selling doves He said,  "Take these away hence, and do not be making My Father's house a house for a merchant's store."

Mk 11:15
And they are coming into Jerusalem. And Jesus, entering into the sanctuary, begins to cast out those selling and those buying in the sanctuary, and the tables of the brokers and the seats of those selling doves He overturns.


   

God bless,

Gary

[undignifieddancer]

They are having a special passover gift (tithe), for the passover angel. Receive great blessings for a gift or a curse if you don't. Absolutely amazing, do these people who promote such things honestly believe these things or are they truly con-artists. Seems to me they have gotten worse the last couple of years.

This reminds me of the selling of indulgences by the Catholic Church that pushed Martin Luther over the edge...so to speak.  Maybe there needs to be a TV envangelist reformation.  I think I'm going to nail 95 thesis to my TV...with a little luck I'll get excommunicated as well!!

If anything we should not conform to the bad hair.   :wink:

Peace

[Falconn003]

You guys are really getting to deep in this thread........great discussions and points of views thus far


Rodger

[leeney]

I know this is an old thread, but I'd like to ask a question.  It' just taking so long to read everything here.  I can't keep up with it.  Just so much good stuff to obsorb!

  So, from what I've read from you guys about the rapture, there is none.  Good, I always had trouble with that one.  But the tribulation (s)---I'm confused.  I was led to believe that there would be one BIG tribulation, the domination of the one anti-christ, who would rule the world for a certain period of time---you know, the 666 mark, not being able to buy food, etc., unless you bowed to him rather than Jesus.  Is this also a lie?  

  What I'm understanding here is that there are millions of anti-christs (all the ministers of today preaching errors?), and each one of us goes through his own private tribulations throughout his life, correct?  And if he stays faithful to Jesus through all of his life's troubles (tribulations), then he is an Elect?  Or at least, he's doing what pleases God?  He's on the right track?

  And so each of us dies at different times, according to the tribulations we've overcome, and our faithfulness throughout it all, and when Jesus decides we've accomplished our 'mission', so to speak?  But if I have this correct then what about when Jesus returns?  If we're all doing this indivudually, then why would He need to return?  I'm getting myself confused here again.  Geesh!  Help me out!  duh.

  leeney

[leeney]

My mind works like a slug.  Jesus is returning to resurrect the dead?  This the first judgement?  

  And the people who are still alive when He returns---Jesus brings up the dead first, and then takes all the living people up with them, and everyone goes up together for the first judgement?  

  Please forgive my babbling.  I just so want to understand it all, like right now.

  leeney