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The Rapture
nightmare sasuke:
This is what I posted on anther forum, it got deleted and I got banned though, tell me what you think:
There is definitely no rapture. It was not taught until the 1800s (from what I can tell). Jesus plainly tells us,
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken ... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat 24:29-31).
Jesus clearly says "after the tribulation of those days." Why? Because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God" (Act 14:22).
It's through much tribulation we enter into the kingdom of God, not through much rapture.
"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 7:14).
To "enter into the kingdom of God," and make your robes "white in the blood of the Lamb," you must first go "through much tribulation," come "out of great tribulation," because "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev 2:7). You must be presented with something to overcome to "overcometh." The rapture theory strangles the Word of God by claiming the Christians will not have to overcome and will be raptured. These people do not understand the purpose of God's loving grace.
Grace chastens, it does not rapture.
"For the grace of God ... [is] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world..." (Tit 2:11-12).
The word translated teaching:
G3811
pa?de?´?
paideuo¯
pahee-dyoo'-o
From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.
The word translated "teaching" is the very word used in the following verse:
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [paideuo, the same word used in Tit 2:12], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" (Heb 12:6).
The lord scourges every son he receives; he does not rapture him.
For "...if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons" (Heb 12:8).
To be raptured would make you a "*******" not a son, because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God."
Where is the kingdom of God? The "kingdom of God is within you" (Luk 17:21).
Many suggest Thessalonians refers to a rapture. However, the people that suggest this are merely twisting Gods words because they are failing "the grace of God," and are "********, and not sons," because they wish to "be without chastisement" and sneak their way into the kingdom of God without going "through much tribulation."
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Th 4:16).
This Scripture does not explain itself, because "no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation" (2Pe 1:20). We must find when these events Paul speaks of will happen by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1Co 2:13).
The event Paul speaks of in 1Th 4:16 apparently happens when "the Lord ... [descends] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..."
What does Jesus say? "[He] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet…" Jesus says "with a great sound of a trumpet." Paul says "and with the trump of God." Clearly these verses are a match. However, what else did Jesus say? "Immediately after the tribulation…" These events happen "after the tribulation", not before, because "through much tribulation [we] enter into the kingdom of God." All faith is tried with fire, "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (1Co 3:13). We all will be tried with fire and if we "overcometh" we will be rewarded. We all must be chastised (not raptured) and go through tribulation because "To him that overcometh will I [Christ] give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God…" To overcome you must first have something to overcome. What must we overcome? What must we come out of and go through to enter the kingdom of God? We must be tried by "fire," we must go through tribulation; we must be under grace and be chastened, for "if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons"!
Moreover, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1Co 15:52). Paul tells us again these events will occur at the last trump. Jesus and Paul both tell us these events happen when the trump of God is blown. And when does that happen? "Immediately after the tribulation…" When "shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"? (Mat 24:30). After the "great tribulation" (Mat 24:21); "Immediately after the tribulation…" (Mat 24:29).
Unfortunately, Christ tells us "…there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Mat 24:24). There are many false prophets amongst us today that have drowned us with their lies. What does Christ have to say about that? "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." Preachers worldwide are saying, look to the signs in the Middle East! And, not long and we will be raptured! Jesus told us to "believe it not." Because "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mat 24:27). Nevertheless, "false prophets" who claim to have "prophesied in [Christs] name … and in [Christs] name … cast out devils … and in [Christs] name done many wonderful works…" (Mat 7:22) would like you to believe that the Son of man will not return "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west," but rather the Lord will make the Christians “*******� by not chastening them but instead taking them secretly out of the world.
Jesus said, "…if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not…" (Mar 13:21). Many preachers are saying "Lo, here" and "lo, there" and saying "the Lord will rapture us soon! We are in the end times!" What did Christ say? "…believe [them] not."
Will you "let [the modern day spiritual] Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, The LORD will surely deliver us"? (2Ki 18:30). I won't because I know "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Act 14:22).
hillsbororiver:
Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.
Joe
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.
Joe
--- End quote ---
Do you agree tribulation is part of being under grace and is indeed a form of chastisement?
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---Hello Nightmare, I thought this was a very well written and scripturally sound post, no wonder you got banned, when one is only able to digest milk, meat will either choke them or make them sick to their stomach.
Joe
--- End quote ---
Do you agree tribulation is part of being under grace and is indeed a form of chastisement?
--- End quote ---
Yes. Grace, sanctification, tribulation. So closely related, working in tandem. You got me thinking and searching here, I love this subject.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again, unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.
This really speaks to our experience in growing spiritually, the unspeakable joy, the tribulations and temptations that strengthen and prepare us, we actually are playing a part in our own creation!
There are times when I feel the His Spirit and the Word becomes so clear that I am overjoyed at what He is showing me and accomplishing in me. I am gladdened and humbled by our Creator working each of us into sons and daughters, this is what I want to feel all the time, but that is only part of the process.
Then come the dark days, when things seem to go against me and I have trouble seeing and hearing what He is saying to me, as if the Spirit has been withdrawn a bit, I am engulfed in darkness so I can better appreciate the Light.
Where in times past when I was going through the tribulations my faith would suffer, I would have self pity or anger now I am aware of what I am supposed to learn, depend on Him, have faith in Him, not let the things of this world control me, letting go of that concern has freed my spirit, bringing Light into the darkness, peace to the mayhem, an order to the chaos.
Praise Him!
Joe
nightmare sasuke:
Moreover, we are to be like Christ and follow his example:
“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me…� (Mat 8:22).
…
“Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction [without a rapture], and of patience� (Jam 5:10).
…
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps…� (1Pe 2:21).
Christ was an example. What is one thing that happened to Christ? He was crucified. Rather than being raptured, Jesus suffered “tribulation,� from the time he was tempted by Satan, up until the time he died on the cross. We are to be like Christ, and Christ did not take the easy way out. We are to be “crucified with Christ� (Gal 2:20).
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come� (1Th 1:10). We are delivered from the wrath, which will purge the ungodly. “…Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;� (Isa 33:14-15). Everyone will be “salted with fire�, however, the elect will find no pain in it because they are already judged (purged) prior to death, because they have fallen into “the ground� and died. “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God� (Dan 3:25). God’s elect will all be “salted with fire� but they will “have no hurt� because those (the elect) that are able to “dwell with the devouring fire� are those that “walketh righteously.�
Moreover, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened� (Mat 24:22). The days are shorted for the elect, but the elect still must experience the days. However, my experience with Matt 24:22 is limited.
PS. Does anyone have more insight into Mat 24:22?
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