Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Brett]

Hi,

I am not sure I can understand what mean Ray's response. It is from "email to Ray" in forum today:

Dear Ray, God created  satan perfect. Eze. 28:13 -15  -? ?
Dorothy


No, Dorothy, God created the WASTER (Satan) to destroy (Isa.54:16).
God's hand created the CROOKED SERPENT (Satan). (Job 26:13)
God created the SERPENT more subtle than any other beast of the field (Gen. 3:1)
Satan was a murderer and a liar FROM THE BEGINNING (John 8:44).
Satan was a sinner FROM THE BEGINNING (I John 3:8.
Etc.,
God be with you,
Ray


I always though that God created Satan but he said 'no'. But then he said that God created waster, crooked serpent, etc. But to me, 'waster' is Satan and 'crooked serpent' and 'serpent' is Satan. I know the scriptures not say that 'God created Satan' but when the scriptures mentions of waster and serpent, but who is waster and serpent? Satan, therefor, it is like God created Satan. Am I right though? Unless, I may misunderstood/missing Ray's response? Hope you can help some with that .

Thanks!

Brett

[Craig]

Brett,

I think he was referring to the word "perfect"

And used those other terms for satan, the Bible does not use the word "perfect"


Craig

[SandyFla]

Hi,

I am not sure I can understand what mean Ray's response. It is from "email to Ray" in forum today:

Dear Ray, God created  satan perfect. Eze. 28:13 -15  -? ?
Dorothy


No, Dorothy, God created the WASTER (Satan) to destroy (Isa.54:16).
God's hand created the CROOKED SERPENT (Satan). (Job 26:13)
God created the SERPENT more subtle than any other beast of the field (Gen. 3:1)
Satan was a murderer and a liar FROM THE BEGINNING (John 8:44).
Satan was a sinner FROM THE BEGINNING (I John 3:8.
Etc.,
God be with you,
Ray


I always though that God created Satan but he said 'no'. But then he said that God created waster, crooked serpent, etc. But to me, 'waster' is Satan and 'crooked serpent' and 'serpent' is Satan. I know the scriptures not say that 'God created Satan' but when the scriptures mentions of waster and serpent, but who is waster and serpent? Satan, therefor, it is like God created Satan. Am I right though? Unless, I may misunderstood/missing Ray's response? Hope you can help some with that .

Thanks!

Brett

That passage is directed to the King of Tyre, not Satan. See verse 11:

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
       " 'You were the model of perfection,
       full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
 13 You were in Eden ...

[sj]

Brett,

I think it is clear, as you stated, that God created satan... the scriptures state "All things were made through Him (Christ or The Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made." This would include satan, since he is a created being.

The question was, does Ezek. 28 say that God make satan perfect? Ray answered "No" because those scriptures do not speak of satan, but instead, as SandyFla stated, they speak of the King of Tyre.

Satan isn't "perfect" because he walks in darkness, he never has been "perfect" because he was sinner/murder/liar from the beginning...

But satan is "perfect for what he was created to do"... in other words, they're could not be a better "destroyer," "crooked serpent, or plain ol' "serpent" than the devil himself, because he is a necessary part of God's plan.


Nice to meet you =)
Josh

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Josh

You say : But satan is "perfect for what he was created to do"...

....yes! for me...that is perfectly stated!

Good lead Craig and helpful insight Sandy

Peace to you

[Brett]

Thank you for the help me clear understand! I appreciate all of your effort . I can see that Ray said "No", God did not created Satan to be perfect. God created him as serpent, crooked and waster.

Any more comments welcome .

Thanks again,

Brett

[YellowStone]

This is a great little discussion

I think we can all agree safely on the following:

1. God created Satan Perfectly

2. In so doing, Satan fulfilled God's requirements perfectly

From this we can assume that Satan was/is indeed perfect in this sense, because he fulfilled and continues to fulfill God's requirements/expectations.

Therefore, we have our dilemma: If Satan was created perfectly, performs perfectly according to plan, then by whose measure are we categorizing perfect? It brings me to the conclusion that we (I) are using sin as a scale to measure perfection. If so, then is this correct? How can we even suggest that God did better on Chriist than Satan, or that he did better on me than "You" (not speaking about anyone )

Kenny Mac summed this up well in the:  Refining Fire post

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, when the blood is properly applied to us, in the revelation that it is intended to, it purges our conscience from sin and when our conscience is purged, stuff that we have tried to overcome for years begins to fall off us. When we enter into His rest we decline from seeing ourselves and the world through an understanding of good vs evil.

So here's my take on it all. Satan is not here to make us evil, we can do that well enough on our own. Satan is no less perfect than any reading this, if we forget about sin. Umm, who created/planned for "sin"?

Just my thoughts, comments always welcome

Darren

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Yellowstone,


  Do you mean that God created Satan perfect in all things or perfect in the way that he would fall away from God and in doing so want to turn others from him?

  I am confused now, becuase I have been following this thread.  I understood it until you made your two statements.

  Would you please clarify your point 1 so that I can understand? What was God's requirements/expectations for Satan??

  Thanks.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Anne

The following information is indespensible in seeing deeper into what is being shared in this thread.

Enjoy!

192    / General Discussions / Relative v/s Absolute  on: November 04, 2006, 07:07:10 AM 
Here is an excerpt from Ray's critique of James Kennedy's sermon "God is not Responsible...." on our home page.....


RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE


If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 

THE RELATIVE:
 THE ABSOLUTE:
 
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)

 

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?

Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.
 Unquote..............................
 
 
Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Hi Anne

You asked:

Yellowstone,


  Do you mean that God created Satan perfect in all things or perfect in the way that he would fall away from God and in doing so want to turn others from him?

  I am confused now, becuase I have been following this thread.  I understood it until you made your two statements.

  Would you please clarify your point 1 so that I can understand? What was God's requirements/expectations for Satan??

  Thanks.

  Sincerely,
  Anne C. McGuire

Your question is of course double sided

You ask:  Do you mean that God created Satan perfect in all things

The answer is dependent on whose messure of Perfect we are using. The answer can only be YES, because any other would suggest that Satan was not perfect in all things GOD INTENDED. For by whose measure are we gauging, ours or Gods?

I would like to add that although God created Satan perfectly according to his plan, I wouldn't go as far as saying Satan is perfect righteous. Because if he is, then God must have failed.

Thanks for your question.

Love,
Darren

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Darren,

  No wonder the cocept did not make sense   I did not realize there were two standards to the word perfect.  Yikes.  I need to get sleep and rest so that I can think.

  Thanks for your response.  By the way it makes sense.  Thanks for taking some time out to clarify.  I am still trying to get through your response Arcturus but from what I read it is making sense as well.


  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire