A question brothers, and sisters :)

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello all, i hope everyone is doing well

Anyway i have a question, and this is a sincere and honost question from a hungry man, spiritualy speaking

What does it mean for Christ to be the FIRST and the LAST the ALPHA and the OMEGA?

Here in lies my confusion, please bare with me, this is important to understanding why i am confused.

I always believed that for example, Adam was a type and shadow of CHrist, somehow or some way. So this would make Christ the FIRST [first adam to be exact.]

The reason i believed this was because Christ said; 'As you have done it unto the least of these my bretheren, you have also done it unto me.' This sounds alot like Christ is the least of these, to the greatest.. the first AND the LAST.

Is this true? If not, someone who understands my confusion please explain.

The reason i bring this is up is because this was my understanding until i recently read something by ray in which I THOUGHT ray was saying that Christ for example is NOT tamar, or that TAMAR is NOT a type of Christ or a shadow of Christ. Now notice i THOUGHT this, i'm not saying this is what ray said. So if Christ is NOT a typified or shadowed by TAMAR [the least of these, she was a 'whore' to my understanding] then what does it mean to be the FIRST and the LAST, THE 'least of these' being done to him as well, what does it all mean?

Someone please help me, this is honost confusion and an honost heart seeking. I hope i didn't post anything wrong.

GOd bless and thanks for any help.

Love in Christ,

Alex

[sj]

What makes Christ the FIRST and the LAST, ALPHA and the OMEGA?

God exists limitlessly... He "is, was, and always will be." Christ, who is the Word of God, was in the beginning with God, therefore He also is before time, which makes Him the first.

At the end of the ages, when all that is physical becomes spirit, Christ will still remain because He and His Father are one. This makes Him the last.

Here are some verses that are quotes often, but will hopefully shed some light on this topic.

Joh 1:1-3  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Heb 11:3  By faith we understand that the ages were framed by a word of God, so that the things being seen not to have come into being out of the things that appear.

Col 1:13-17  For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son; in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins. who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Not sure if this helps, but maybe it's a start.

God's Peace
Josh

[lilitalienboi16]

Yes it helps brings things back into perspective a bit, but it doesn't shed light on the fact that Christ said;

If you do it to the least of these, you also do it to Him.

I always understood it as that.

I thank you for your help, perhaps i was just alittle backwards in my udnerstanding, hopefuly some other people here can help shed light on the what it means to do it unto the least of these, and be the first and the last.

Paul says; "Howbiet that which is FIRST is NOT SPIRITUAL, but natural, and then that which is spiritual [last.]"

I'll be praying on this.. but i'm hopeing God will give me an answer here somewhere from someone.

Your answer helped, but apperently it wasn't enough

I'm still confused.

God bless and thank you,

Alex

[chuckt]

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 

[rocky]

Hello all, i hope everyone is doing well

Anyway i have a question, and this is a sincere and honost question from a hungry man, spiritualy speaking

What does it mean for Christ to be the FIRST and the LAST the ALPHA and the OMEGA?

Here in lies my confusion, please bare with me, this is important to understanding why i am confused.

I always believed that for example, Adam was a type and shadow of CHrist, somehow or some way. So this would make Christ the FIRST [first adam to be exact.]

The reason i believed this was because Christ said; 'As you have done it unto the least of these my bretheren, you have also done it unto me.' This sounds alot like Christ is the least of these, to the greatest.. the first AND the LAST.

Is this true? If not, someone who understands my confusion please explain.

The reason i bring this is up is because this was my understanding until i recently read something by ray in which I THOUGHT ray was saying that Christ for example is NOT tamar, or that TAMAR is NOT a type of Christ or a shadow of Christ. Now notice i THOUGHT this, i'm not saying this is what ray said. So if Christ is NOT a typified or shadowed by TAMAR [the least of these, she was a 'whore' to my understanding] then what does it mean to be the FIRST and the LAST, THE 'least of these' being done to him as well, what does it all mean?

Someone please help me, this is honost confusion and an honost heart seeking. I hope i didn't post anything wrong.

GOd bless and thanks for any help.

Love in Christ,

Alex

I'm not sure if this helps, but here is a few thots. 

The "least of these", in my opinion is referrring to those in need of mercy.  The greatest would refer to the carnal law abiders, self righteous; prideful, those who see no need for a doctor.

giving mercy to those who cry out for mercy

Jesus is the first person in the flesh to fufill the spiritual law, Love.  He was humble and relied 100 percent on his father to get him through.  He was merciful to those in need of mercy. 

But things didn't end there, he also died, and rose again, being the firstfruit of those that risen.  And through his risen spirit, he is the completion/end, the finisher of our faith.  The whole body is complete through Him, not just the head.

Maybe this verse helps too,

Rev 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

was=dead
is=alive forevermore
will be=completion (keys of hell and of death, death destroyed)

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

The reason i believed this was because Christ said; 'As you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have also done it unto me.' This sounds alot like Christ is the least of these, to the greatest.. the first AND the LAST.

In this particular statement of Christ, here He is speaking of 'My brethren' the elect, in whom He was in them, as they were in Him.

John 15:4  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

So in Rev 22:13, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."  To use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet would denote the whole thing, from beginning to end.
Jesus Christ in Rev 1:4, is "Him who is and who was and who is coming;"  this is to show that He was omnipotent, and would continue to exist through all ages, as he had existed from the beginning.  And there could be no doubt about his ability to execute all which it is said He would do.

To say however that He is represented in every aspect of the whole creation, that would fall between the beginning and the end, would include much evil 
To say Christ is a type or shadow of all people spoken of, even in just the scripture, would imply He was also a type of all the vile people that did evil in the sight of God? 
This sounds like a contradiction to me, if you see what I mean.
As Christ was sinless, how could He be a type of something sinful? 

1Jo 3:3  And everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.
1Jo 3:4  Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jo 3:5  You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat 

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,

The reason i believed this was because Christ said; 'As you have done it unto the least of these my bretheren, you have also done it unto me.' This sounds alot like Christ is the least of these, to the greatest.. the first AND the LAST.

In this particular statement of Christ, here He is speaking of 'My bretheren' the elect, in whom He was in them, as they were in Him.

Joh 15:4  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

So in Rev 22:13, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."  To use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet would denote the whole thing, from beginning to end.
Jesus Christ in Rev 1:4, is "Him who is and who was and who is coming;"  this is to show that He was omnipotent, and would continue to exist through all ages, as he had existed from the beginning.  And there could be no doubt about his ability to execute all which it is said He would do.

To say however that He is repersented in every aspect of the whole creation, that would fall between the beginning and the end, would include much evil 
To say Christ is a type or shadow of all people spoken of, even in just the scripture, would imply He was also a type of all the vile people that did evil in the sight of God? 
This sounds like a contradiction to me, if you see what I mean.
As Christ was sinless, how could He be a type of something sinful? 

1Jo 3:3  And everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.
1Jo 3:4  Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jo 3:5  You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat 

Alright Kat, your more on the lines of what i am thinking, thank you.

So do you believe Joseph to be a type of the elect, or also a shadow of Christ?

Do you believe Daniel who was a slave in babylon and raised underneeth the king, to be a type of the elect, or also a type of Christ?

I just find it hard to draw a line somewhere in the sand and say; "This applies to Christ, and this does not!"

I mean paul tells the people who were worshiping the 'unkown God' that they move and have their bieng IN CHRIST, yet these were pagan unbelievers... see what i'm saying?

Ok heres some food for thought, perhaps you can give me your thoughts and perspective;

We are told that ALL THINGS came through Christ from the Father, does ALL things not include also evil? Or is that something that is not includded? Not saying Christ is evil.. God forbid, just giving some food for thought out here. Much like how God created evil, was it nto THROUGH CHrist?

Once again i thank you kat, and everyone else for your help, lets keep this going please i'm still looking for more, but you guys have helped answer some of my confusion.

ANd yes i was more so talking about 'scripture' when referencing the 'least of these' bieng from the smallest of the isrealites in the OT or any person to the greatest of them, the first and the last.

Love in Christ,

Alex

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

These things that you have mentioned are interesting.

We are told that ALL THINGS came through Christ from the Father, does ALL things not include also evil? Or is that something that is not includded? Not saying Christ is evil.. God forbid, just giving some food for thought out here. Much like how God created evil, was it nto THROUGH CHrist?

One thing I would like to mention, in Isa. 45:7, where God says He creates evil, this is Jehovah speaking, who is the God of the OT and later became Jesus Christ.

But I will have to say most of the understanding I have came from Ray's articles.
So if you don't mind I will bring some excerpts from his articles, where he has discussed these things.

This is from 'The Myth of Free-Will Exposed,' part B.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -------------------------------------

GOD CREATES AND USES EVIL FOR GOOD

Evil has no moral bias. God does not sin when He uses evil for His good purposes. Men sin when they do evil to other men.
Evil [Heb. ha' = TO SMASH] is only a "sin" when it is used wrongly. God uses evil for good. The glorious culmination of God's plan will justify His use of evil a trillion times to the power of infinity! Notice how often God uses evil in the Scriptures:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).
"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

Scripture proves that God not only created evil, but that He, Himself, is responsible for it.
How much more comforting it is to believe the Scriptures. God created evil and uses it for a good purpose. Evil's existence is only temporary (like the scaffolding on a new building). When the building is completed, the ugly scaffolding is removed-it serves no further function to the finished building. Only a knowledge of evil, not evil itself, has eternal value. How awful to think that God did not foresee the coming of evil, can't justify its existence, can't dispose of it, can't save most of humanity because of it. There is no justification for, nor redeeming value in, eternal torture. None.
God is Wise. God wants Sons who will know both "good and evil." God's "end" more than justifies His "means." As Paul said:
"For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory ... " (II Cor. 4:17). Concordant Literal New Testament.

Joseph and his brothers is a parable for the whole plan of God, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:
From the intentions of the heart of Joseph's brothers, the deed to sell Joseph into slavery down in Egypt was EVIL. But from the intention of the heart of GOD, the deed was one of great benevolence and righteousness! And the Scriptures actually say so in just so many words, when Joseph's brothers did indeed bow down to him:
"And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).
Joseph plainly states that "God meant it unto good." The "it" was the evil act of Joseph's brothers. God did not change "it" unto good. No, God meant for the "it" to take place—"it" was His doing. But God's motivation for the "it" was for good and not evil as Joseph's brothers intended. So God brought about the "it" by the dream that He caused Joseph to have. And it was God's intention from the very conception of the "it" (the dirty deed) to be used for good!
And this IS how God operates. Not just with Joseph and his brothers, but with all humanity in all ages. "God is no respecter of persons," and "God changes not."

SAMSON AND HIS WIFE HAD NO FREE WILL/CHOICE

"...that He sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel" (Judges 14:4).
There is the Scriptural answer to the why of this romance between Samson and this Philistine woman—it was all of God, for God's purpose. God could best bring about His judgment on the Philistines by having Samson marry a Philistine. Simple, huh? God has a plan for every person's life, and this IS how God operates. God planned your wedding as well. God plans everything. It just that most of humanity, "...knew NOT that it was OF THE LORD."
"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not 'free' to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).
"Man's goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).
But of what value are these many Scriptures that I have cited if we don't believe any of them? Is there even ONE Scripture that I have cited above that you believe to be an ABSOLUTE AND TRUE STATEMENT OF GOD regarding man and his ability to will and choose independently of God? Well if you can agree that even ONE of them is absolutely true, then you must admit that God and the Scriptures allow no place for any reality of man having his OWN WILL that is FREE from the sovereignty of God's operations of all.
No, it was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Israel to first say they would obey and later decide to not obey. It was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Joseph's brothers to hate him, sell him into slavery, and then later to bow down to him. It was "the hand of the LORD" that put Samson and the Philistine woman together, but as with these and hundreds of more dealings by "the hand of the Lord" mentioned in Scripture, they "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."
Do you "know NOT" that all that you have said and done today, "was OF THE
LORD?"
Most of humanity is born, lives, does evil and good, then dies, and "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html -------------------------------------

Lazarus and the Rich Man

All of the parables have huge consequences. They depict giant events to come on this world. They deal with the future of millions and billions--not just a beggar in the street somewhere. Let's not cheapen or demean this parable.
There is a continuity running through most of the parables. Virtually all of the parables deal with punishments and rewards on the same people at the same event. Although the meaning of His parables were hidden, on one occasion Christ did identify Himself in a parable. Correctly translated thus:
"Undoubtedly you will be declaring to me this parable: 'Physician cure your self'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Parables are in some ways like fine poetry. Marvelous word pictures having giant spiritual applications and ramifications can be presented with very few words, AND, it is God's purpose to conceal many of the truths of His Kingdom except to those to whom it is given to understand.
Through symbolism and personification, God often uses one some thing or person to represent many or even multitudes and whole nations of people:
Literally it is nothing. But what it represents in figurative and symbolic language is awesome. It has to do with the operations of God, Satan, millions of people and the very end of this age.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this might answer a lot of your questions 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Kat, i would like to thank you again for takeing the time to discuss with me these things, giving your opinoin and also quoteing rays finaly written articles.

I have no trouble understanding the sovereignty of God kat, it is not that at all, its my understanding of spiritual things that has been rescently shaken.

For example, i believed Joseph to be a type and shadow of Christ, and of the Elect.

Paul said all these things were written for our esample, he also says the law is a shadow of good things to come. The shadow is that of the body [Christ's body.]

So if the law was a shadow of Christ, and all the 'be ye not idolters, murders, tempters etc...' was a type of US then their must be some extremely spiritual things hidden behind the letter of everyword in the OT.

For example, paul says that Adam and Eve is actualy Christ and the church. But how? Did not adam disobey God, was not adam a natural man, made of the dust? Christ was no where carnal, He was completely spiritual and pleased God, yet Paul says adam was a shadow of Christ, how?

So my question now is after reading a certain article from ray, it has rather shaken the foundations of what i THOUGHT was truth...

That all things in the OT were shadows or types of us or Christ in some way shape or form, not just natural history of a people for us to learn about.. but what i got from reading a certain article from ray was that this type of thinking is dangerous.. again, i'm not saying this is what He ment, or was saying, but this is what i got from it..

So i'm trying to figure out, where does one draw the line?

I mean adam did 'evil' by disobeying God because He wanted to be with eve, but regardless paul says this is a shadow of Christ and the church but Christ never disobeyed His father.. see what i mean?

I really hope someone can clear this up, because i'm having a hard time now after what i read understanding where one draws the line.. i'm praying about it but still no answer from the big man.

I hope someone who is more spiritual stable an dmature can help me out here.

Thank you again for your help kat, hopefully you can see my confusion and perhaps help me alittle more.

Love and peace in Christ,

Alex

[DWIGHT]

Alex,

Remember, the man was not deceived but the woman was.  Adam(Christ) knew that Eve(the Church) would die the moment that she ate the fruit.  But he loved her so much that he ate the fruit knowing that he would die too.  Christ became sin(offering) for the Church because He knew that without Him she would perish alone.  "Therefore we are buried with him by baptisim into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom. 6:4.  Ray has often said that the Scriptures are one great big parable and that when we take them literally and just in their context, we often miss the real meaning.  That which is natural comes first, then that which is spiritual.  The first Adam was natural and the last Adam is spiritual.  The first Adam sinned so all sinned, The last Adam became a life giving spirit, so all that are in the last Adam are in spirit.

God bless you Alex,

Dwight,

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

I have been thinking about your questions.

So my question now is after reading a certain article from ray, it has rather shaken the foundations of what i THOUGHT was truth...

That all things in the OT were shadows or types of us or Christ in some way shape or form, not just natural history of a people for us to learn about.. but what i got from reading a certain article from ray was that this type of thinking is dangerous.. again, i'm not saying this is what He ment, or was saying, but this is what i got from it..

So i'm trying to figure out, where does one draw the line?

Most of us have come out of the church, we learned many false doctrines, I know I had some really ingrained in my understanding and they have to be purged.
As things are revealed, we have to purge those old ways of seeing things out.

The scripture are very complex and intricate, and there are many layers of understanding to them.
I know I have went back and read and studied the same scripture and continue to gain a deeper understanding of it.
Some are given a greater degree of insight and can teach us what is revealed to them. 
But I do believe it only comes through much study and meditation and prayer, for anyone to receive knowledge of the Truth.

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

As for Joseph, I believe his life closely resembles that of the elect.
He was predestinated, therefore everything in his life was caused and lead up to his ruling over the land of Egypt. 
His brothers hated him, because he told them about his dreams, we are hated when we speak of the things God has revealed to us.  As with him I think this is especially difficult for our families to comprehend.

Mat 13:57  And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."

Joseph was in prison for many years, as the years I was in the church seemed like a prison to me.
And God brought him to the highest position, through many trials, in Egypt under Pharaoh (Christ).

I think the scripture are chock-full of knowledge, we could not possibly learn even the half of it,
in this lifetime anyway.
But God will continue to reveal to us what He desires in His good time.
As for drawing a line, as long as we stick with what is in the scripture we should not limit it,
I think a line would limit what we can see in it 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Alright thank you both of you, dwight and kat.

Dwight i see what your saying, however adam also did disobey God by eating of the tree, full well knowing the consequences, but i see what your saying.

However i have another question now, ray says that Christ was not made sin, but rather in the likeness.

However one of the scriptures state;

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

He made Him to be sin.

The reason i ask this is because ray was saying that the flesh is not sin, but rather the carnal mind, and so Jesus was made in the likeness of sin [in flesh.] but did not have a carnal mind because Christ always followed His father and pleased Him.

Now i know the carnal mind is sin, but for Christ to be made sin, if He didn't have a carnal mind as ray says [because the carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God.] how could Christ have been made sin, if it wasn't His flesh that was sin?

Anyone know?

God bless and thank you all again,

Alex

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Alex

Christ was never made sin....He was always a sin offering, spotless sinless Lamb of God.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Alex

Christ was never made sin....He was always a sin offering, spotless sinless Lamb of God.

Peace to you

Arcturus

How come the verse says He was made sin, and another says in the likeness?

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

Unless i'm reading this wrong which could be possible... it says He made Him to be sin... so if Christ was not made sin... then.................. i'm confused, lol.

God bless,

Alex

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Alex

Refer to the latest Mobile Conference for the audio teaching on this subject. You can pick it up in the Announcements section on the Forum.

Enjoy!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Alex

Refer to the latest Mobile Conference for the audio teaching on this subject. You can pick it up in the Announcements section on the Forum.

Enjoy!

Peace to you

Arcturus

okay ty I was actualy listning to the first audio part but it was just so bad trying to hear that i couldnt.

[Deborah-Leigh]

The audios after part one are much better and Kat has produced the transcript for part one that is publshed on the Forum.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

Ray did discuss Christ was not a sin but a sin offering, at length at a bible study.
This is in the 'Intro. and Announcements' section of the forum, I think both bible studies cover it.

Just to give you a bit to go on, the translation is not accurate, Ray proves this very well.

This Concordant Literal Version shows it correctly.

2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat