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I need some prayer
Patrick:
Anne, you mentioned in your post that you have a belief that if you mess up you do not deserve God to get you out of it.
Have you read Ray's "Free Will" paper?
If not, it will help you understand how all this debt came about.
You also mentioned this should not negate your success in your walk with the Lord, but it is threatening to do that. When you truly know how all this debt came about, I believe your thinking will change (if God has opened up your eyes and ears and I believe He has to some degree)
My trial with debt hurts to this day, almost 20 yrs later. I thought I could outsmart the IRS and the local tax authorities; BIG mistake! However, I now know Who is responsible and I know who is accountable.
I will pray for you and your family.
rrammfcitktturjsp:
Patrick,
I have read the paper on free will. Are you saying that God planned for me to be in debt? I thought I was the one who made stupid decisions. Well if God planned for me to be right here, then God has a marvelous plan for me. I forgot that God even controls this aspect of my life. I know it is a long road to tow.
My friend said that I should be leaning on God even more and more during this time and he is right. I believe that I made this debt come into being, but I know that things do not happen if it is not God's planning. So how do I reconcille this with God loving us and wanting to give me abundant life? I am so confused in this area of finances right now.
I will say this, I have an awesome hubby who is helping me through this dark trial now. I do not know where I would be without the foruma and him. Thanks guys.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
eggi:
Anne, your situation has given me some thoughts. I thought about this the whole day today, and since I have a free day, and I'm alone, I had plenty of time for doing just that. You asked:
--- Quote ---I believe that I made this debt come into being, but I know that things do not happen if it is not God's planning. So how do I reconcille this with God loving us and wanting to give me abundant life?
--- End quote ---
Yes, we make our problems come into being by our actions and the actions of others. However, the circumstances around us which caused us to act like that were not controlled by us. Because of the fact that we are marred we sometimes do things which we don't want to do.
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. (Jer 18:4-6 KJV)
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:15-20 KJV)
I have seen this so clearly in the last time. I DO WHAT I HATE. Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Jesus Christ.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:24-25 KJV)
So, onto the next question. How do we reconcile being in debt with the fact that God wants us to have an abundant life? Anne, I want to thank you for your sincerity and for sharing this problem with us (I thank you on behalf of myself, but I'm sure that others here will agree with me). Your question was right on target. How do we reconcile being in physical debt with the fact that God wants us to have an abundant life? The only answer I can come up with is that regardless of physical debt and physical illness we can be spiritually out of debt and delivered from spirituall illness. These questions have lead me to conclude that the Bible ONLY makes sense to me as speaking about spiritual, and not physical. This is another debate, I know, but I have been brought to see that if the Bible is to be understood physically it is FULL of contradictions. That which is spiritually is eternal, the physical is not. I simply cannot make sense of it when I try to apply it physically. Therefore I believe that when God's Word is telling us that He wants us to have an abundant life, it means a spiritually abundant life. After all, a physically abundant life makes it hard to enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Mat 19:23-26 KJV)
This is what I believe we should expect:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Pe 1:4 KJV)
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Tit 3:4-6 KJV)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (Joh 10:10 KJV)
He came that we might have LIFE, and that we might have it more abundantly! What is life?
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:3 KJV)
He came that we might know the Father and pass from spiritual death to spiritual life:
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (Mat 10:40 KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Joh 5:24-25 KJV)
This is a digression, but just now I noticed it saying: "The hour is coming, and now is".
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:38-40 KJV)
I hope this is of help to you, Anne. I hope that you can see that we can have life abundantly even if we are poor and in debt.
Thank you again for your sharing with us, Anne.
Patrick:
Anne, I'm saying God is in control of EVERYTHING!!
I copied these paragraphs from the "Free Will" article;
God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.
God has a plan, and God brings about His plan. God is not stupid. God knows exactly how to cause man (all mankind) to do exactly as He plans for them to do.
So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).
This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.
After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.
Does that help any?
iris:
This has been a really good thread.
It has helped me to understand better
God's will and purpose.
Thank you so much!
Iris
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