Israel - the Jewish people

[Nancy]

Hi there everyone,
I pray that you all have a wonderful New Year!!

I have read Ray's commentary concerning the twin towers and the only thing i felt about it was negative.  In his speech about who are the 'real' Israel or Jews, i felt that Ray was saying that Jewish people in general have been discarded by God.  I may be wrong in saying this.  If i am forgive me. 
But how could God discard the people who were the Jews, who were exiled out of Israel in 70AD proper?  Doesn't St. Paul state that God hasn't changed His mind about them?
And also he states, What is the value of being circumcised? Much! For to them were given the oracles of God. 
I feel aggrieved when believers talk down about the Jews i really do. Maybe that's just my problem.
Well glad to hear your views on this.
God bless
Nancy

[YellowStone]

Nancy asked:

I have read Ray's commentary concerning the twin towers and the only thing i felt about it was negative.  In his speech about who are the 'real' Israel or Jews, i felt that Ray was saying that Jewish people in general have been discarded by God.  I may be wrong in saying this.  If i am forgive me. 


Nancy, you have asked a fine question. I am by no means the most qualified to answer this, and if I am wrong then I will surely be corrected. I love this place

However, it is my understanding that the relationship between God and the Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) was a "Physical" relationship (physical Jewish People); however, since the death and resurrection of Christ; the relationship between God and his people is now "Spiritual." What Ray said was his new Jewish are only figuratively so, as in spiritually. This is how Ray made the connection with America. However, this is also only figurative; in fact any person, regardless of skin color, location and language can also be a spiritual jew providing they accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

This is of course a very short answer, but I believe you will see where I am coming from.

If anyone can help Nancy with Scripture, please do.

Love to all,

Darren

[kennymac]

Hello,

Here is some scripture that might help you see who the true Jew's are.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

Rev 2:9 I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
He repeats this idea in Rev. 3:9, saying,

Rev 3:99 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

The tribe of Judah consisted of two types of Judahites: good and bad. The good side of Judah was to be the true Isreal, while the bad side was to be rejected by God. This picture fully emerges in the prophecies of Jeremiah. The main portrait of these two "trees" is found in Jeremiah 24, which speaks of the nation of Judah being like two baskets of figs. One basket contained very good figs; the other contained very rotten figs that could not be eaten. Jeremiah tells us of these in the first verses of Jeremiah 24,

1 After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths from Jerusalem and had brought them to Babylon, the Lord showed me: behold, two baskets of figs set before the temple of the Lord! 2 One basket had very good figs, like first-ripe figs; and the other basket had very bad figs, which could not be eaten due to rottenness.

Two centuries later, God told the prophet Jeremiah that because the people had turned Solomon's temple into a den of robbers, He was going to forsake Jerusalem like He had forsaken Shiloh. (This was fulfilled in Ezekiel 10:18 and 11:22, 23.) God then tells Jeremiah in verse 16,

16 As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you.

With this background, we come to Jeremiah 24, where we see the revelation of God showing the different types of judgment that He would mete toward two kinds of individual Judahites. The basket of good figs were those men of Judah who submitted to the judgment of God and who went to Babylon into captivity. Their judgment was for a good end, because they submitted to the decision of the Divine Court. God said that He would bring them back to the land and "give them a heart to know Me"

The basket of bad figs, however, represented those men of Judah who refused to submit to the king of Babylon—that is, they refused to submit to the judgment of God. God said of these bad figs,

8 But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness—indeed, thus says the Lord—so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9 And I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I shall scatter them. 10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence upon them until they are destroyed from the land which I gave to them and to their forefathers.

What a contrast! The fig tree was, of course, the symbol of the nation of Judah. But it is apparent that the two baskets of figs came from two different fig trees. Jesus clearly saw both types of Judahites in His day, for He said in Matt. 7:17-20,

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

The good tree brought forth good fruit; the bad tree bore bad fruit. Both are of Judah, but there was a clear division between the people represented by these trees. The good figs were those who submitted to His judgment—the Babylonian captivity—rather than fight. The bad figs, however, rejected God's judgment and refused to view Nebuchadnezzar as God's "servant" (Jer. 27:6). This is clear from a simple reading of Jeremiah 24 through chapter 30.The traditional Church belief was that the "Gentile" Church replaced the Jews as God's chosen people. As I see it, this is not quite accurate. Past theologians did not really understand the issue from the perspective of biblical law.

The early Church, founded on Jesus Christ and the apostles, was the true Judah "tree" that produced the good figs in the first century application of Jeremiah 24. However, Jesus' followers were a tiny minority and were not in control of the temple in Jerusalem. When the bad figs rejected Jesus as Messiah, the believers were persecuted and finally expelled from the land. They were excommunicated from Judaism.

The good figs lost their identity as "Jews." That is, the bad figs retained the identification with the tribe or nation of Judah, while the good figs became known in the world as "Christians" (Acts 11:26). But God knew them as true Judah—the followers of the King of Judah, Jesus Christ. They were the good figs that God had expelled from the old land for their good.

The evil figs, however, remained in the old land in their state of rebellion until the nation was destroyed in 70-73 A.D. God gave them forty years in which to repent, but they refused. Finally, God sent His Roman armies to carry out His sentence of judgment, even as Jesus said in His parable in Matthew 22:7,

7 But the king [God] was enraged and sent HIS armies, and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire.
The point is that a "Gentile Church" did not replace a "Jewish Church." The earliest Christians were always the good figs of Judah, carrying on the biblical dominion mandate that had been given to Judah. When the King of Judah came, they gave their allegiance to Him and learned from Him how to be a "good fig." In accepting Him as Messiah, God made a New Covenant with them, as prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31, saying,

31 Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
He did NOT make this covenant with a "gentile Church." He made it with the good figs of the true house of Judah, led by the Prince of that tribe, Jesus Christ. If any non-Jew wants to be saved, he must transfer his citizenship to the house of Judah and swear allegiance to its King, Jesus Christ. He then becomes a convert to the true house of Judah—not a convert to Judaism. Judaism is the religion of the rebellious figs, that says in Luke 19:14, "We do not want this Man to reign over us." Their fate is given in Jesus' words in Luke 19:27,

27 But these enemies of Mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in My presence.

This is the fate of Zionism. He has brought representatives of the bad figs back to the old land from virtually every nation in the world in order to judge them for not wanting Jesus Christ to reign over them. What is most astounding is that many Christians have paid their way through contributions to bring them back for this judgment!

God bless
Kennymac

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Okay guys,

  Wow, I got a Strong's Concordance, but my hubby is sleeping and I do not want to disturb him.

  How about that Scripture that I believe is in the Gospel of John that Jesus is talking to the woman at the well.  If memory serves me well, he says there is one day that people will worship in truth and spirit, not at Jerusalem and ect.

  Hmmm, there's another one in Corinthians or is it Romans, where it says There is no Greek or Jew, ect, ect, ect.  How can this verse hold true, it can only hold true if it is applied spiritually rather than physcially.  Does this make sense.

  I hope this helps.  It's all I can think of at the time.  If I think of more, I will add them later.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[Kat]

Hi Nancy,

In Ray's article 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' he puts a lot of effort to explain about the Jews.
I took a portion to show you, but the whole article would give a better understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html -------------------------------------------------

JEWS STILL REJECT JESUS

Judah did not obey God through most of their long history. The Jews as a nation did not repent at the preaching of John the Baptist. They killed their own Savior!

"Let all the house of Israel know certainly, then, that God Makes Him Lord as well as Christ--this Jesus Whom you [Jews] crucify!" (Acts 2:36).

But Christ forgave them before He even died:

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

He commissioned his apostles to herald the good news of His resurrection and the coming Kingdom of God to them again, but again, as a nation, the Jews rejected Him.

So now what? So then Christ calls Saul to be "Paul." And so Paul preaches and teaches in Jerusalem. And what kind of reception did Paul and his message receive?

"Now he [Paul] argued in the synagogue on every sabbath ... Paul was pressed in the word, certifying to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. Now at their [the Jews] resisting and blaspheming, shaking out his garments, he said to them, 'Your blood be on your head! Clear am I! From now on I SHALL GO TO THE NATIONS" (Acts 18:4-6).

Just as Christ prophesied

"...neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead."

The Scriptures do plainly state that the Jews shall yet find salvation through Christ's Sacrifice, because it was God who blinded them in the first place so that they would not and could not understand and repent! Isaiah prophesied that they would not repent and so Christ did not heal them (Mat. 13:1915). "...us [Gentiles], whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also..." (Rom.. 9:24). And

"I shall be calling those who are not My people [poor and wretched people like Lazarus--Gentiles] 'My people,'" (Rom. 9:25).

Yes ALL PEOPLE will be GOD'S PEOPLE!

If that thought doesn't bring joy to our hearts, I don't know what could. And

"I became disclosed to those [Gentiles] who are not inquiring for Me" (Rom. 10:20).

Since the time that Paul said "From now on I shall go to the nations," the Jews have, except for rare and individual cases, rejected Christ risen from the dead. But millions of poor rejected people like Lazarus have been brought into Abraham's bosom, into a close and intimate relationship with God Himself.

Well, since it was "God" who blinded the Jews and caste them away, will He ever take them back and remove their blindness?

"For if their [the Jews] casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the TAKING BACK be if not life from among the dead?" (Rom. 11:15).

"...that callousness [by God Ver. 8], in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering. And thus ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED..." (Rom. 11:26)!!

Look at Ezekiel 37 beginning in verse 13

"And ye shall know that I am the Lord when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves." (Notice they come out of their graves, not out of hell).

Ver. 14, "And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live..." (Notice they shall "live." That means they were "dead," not alive in some hell).

Ver. 23, "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."

Ver. 25, "And David my servant shall be king over them..."

GOD IS OPERATING ALL

How could anyone possibly believe any one of these verses and yet believe that unbelieving Jews God will burn in Hell for all eternity. Let's be Scripturally honest here:

God blinded Israel (ver. 08).

God used their offense to bring salvation to the nations (ver. 11).

God caste Israel away so that He could conciliate the whole world (ver 15).

God will take back these unbelieving and sinning Jews (ver 15)

God will give them life from among the dead (ver. 15).

God will save all Israel (ver. 26).

God will not burn them in hell for all eternity, because they will be sinless: "Whenever I should be eliminating their sins" (Ver. 27).

It is GOD Who is in control of the destiny of the human race, not MAN!

God has a plan that eventually brings all the Jews and all the Gentiles to salvation. The very heart of the Gospel is the salvation of the Jews and Gentiles, the salvation of the WHOLE WORLD!
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Nancy]

Hi there all and Kat,

You are dead right when you make God responsible for the hardening of Jews' hearts towards Christ.  It is God who has purposed it.  If the Jews accepted Christ from the beginning, Christ would probably have stayed a Jewish Saviour, but we all know the reality of Gods' workings.  Christ is known by gentiles as well now.
I hate it when christians talk about the Jews' rejection of Christ as if it is their fault. 
Of course i get upset when Jewish people say things about Christ that i'd rather they not say but i have to forgive them as Christ did.  My heart reaches out to them.  I don't know why but it does.
Thanks for your replies.
God bless
Nancy

[Sorin]

I believe the one hurdle many have with the jews is reading"God's chosen people " and thinking ((they the readers)) should some how be oblige to hold up the jews to a higher esteem than themselves((the readers)),  PURE foolishness and far from the grace of God for us all.

Many scriptures qouted and posted above mine are a perfect TRUMPET to what the Word of God says of us ALL,who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Anything that would make you feel inferer cast it out of your FAITH.

God bless
Rodger

Well said Rodger! I've seen people say things like "I'll forever be greatful to the Jews 'cause it's because of them that we the Gentiles have salvation" or something to that affect. No It Isn't! It's because of Christ's death and God's plan, not because the Jews were made blind, this was all God's purpose, the Jews had nothing to do with it, it's just the way God chose to do things. If anything, the Gentiles [that are called and then chosen] are God's True Chosen people.

So what if the Jews were first, I thought the first will be last in God's kingdom?

Mar 10:31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.

Mat 19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first. etc...

So why are people holding the Jews 'to a higher esteem' as Rodger said?


Take care,
Sorin

[rocky]

I believe the one hurdle many have with the jews is reading"God's chosen people " and thinking ((they the readers)) should some how be oblige to hold up the jews to a higher esteem than themselves((the readers)),  PURE foolishness and far from the grace of God for us all.

Many scriptures qouted and posted above mine are a perfect TRUMPET to what the Word of God says of us ALL,who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Anything that would make you feel inferer cast it out of your FAITH.

God bless
Rodger

Well said Rodger! I've seen people say things like "I'll forever be greatful to the Jews 'cause it's because of them that we the Gentiles have salvation" or something to that affect. No It Isn't! It's because of Christ's death and God's plan, not because the Jews were made blind, this was all God's purpose, the Jews had nothing to do with it, it's just the way God chose to do things. If anything, the Gentiles [that are called and then chosen] are God's True Chosen people.

So what if the Jews were first, I thought the first will be last in God's kingdom?

Mar 10:31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.

Mat 19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first. etc...

So why are people holding the Jews 'to a higher esteem' as Rodger said?


Take care,
Sorin

I agree Sorin, it was all God's plan.  God is definitely the one who hardens hearts and opens eyes.  The hardening by God of the jews is what brought salvation/reconciliation to us. 


Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?


Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.


Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!



Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.


Praise God for his sovereignty. 

[Nancy]

Hi there all,
Thanks for your replies.

I in no way feel inferior to Jewish people (my husband being one of them). Sometimes we jokingly tease each other with 'I'm Gods' chosen' 'No I am'.
I don't feel that God loves me because of the Jews, but doesn't Our Lord say salvation is of the Jews?
I love Jewish people I feel because to me they are a testament that God chose a people and that the bible is true.  I feel it is of God that although they have suffered through the centuries, it is Gods' miracle that they all haven't become athiests!
God bless
Nancy

[Falconn003]

WELL SAID
Sorin , Rocky and Nancy

The only inferior complex, we should strive for, is being unto the likeness of God our Father, And the best part of this inferiority is that God will be the one who will purge this from us, as he is creating us ALL in his IMAGE.

wonderful thread

God bless
Rodger