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[John]

  Faith
« on: Today at 08:55:13 AM » 

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From the e-mail to Ray section.

Ray
 
I read your response today to a just published email to a person concerning faith.  This was part of your answer....
 
"I am somewhat aware of all of these arguments against the faith.  They do no hinder me. And why is that?  Because I LIVE BY FAITH, that's why.  But isn't faith based on PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS?  If we don't have PROOF, then we don't have FAITH, right?  WRONG!  Faith is belief and assurance that is NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE.  The King James definition of faith in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews is worse than awful.  Faith is an assurance that something is true even though there is no absolute tangible proof for that faith. So where does one find such a faith? He doesn't--IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD!
 
That is the magic of faith. Only those GIFTED WITH IT, HAVE IT--"For by grace are you saved [that being WHEN you are saved--yet future] through FAITH;  and that NOT of yourselves:  it is the GIFT OF GOD"
 
OK I can accept that.  However, years ago I lived with a devout muslim who would say the same thing to me.  He did not care about any contrary evidence to his faith.  he believed because he said >>>it is FAITH.  It is an "a priori" it is true and its resides in the center of his being.  He once told me if an angel from heaven announced to him another faith, he would not accept it, if it contradicted the Koran and Islam.
 
How is your faith any different than his?  A different book, of course, but the character of the faith is the same...you both believe it is a gift from God and accept it not based on evidence.
 
I wish that it could be shown that those who have the true faith, that their faith is of a different character than those with untrue faith, but apparently it cannot.  The human experience of faith appears to be identical in all people.  That faith may cause different actions depending on the tenets of the person or book it is built on, but the raw faith itself, is the same.  If you disagree, how can you explain that those who have faith in belief systems contrary to yours, are by any objective measure, responding in kind to their inborn faith to follow those belief systems just as you?
 
I think correct faith is a gift from God, meaning the truth, but that faith itself, is found in all types of people.  They believe with the same assurance as you do.
 
Doug
 

Dear Doug:
You are making something difficult and mysterious out of something that is quite simple (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear).
 
"Faith" is not a "Bible" word, or a "religious" word: it is a WORD, and it has a meaning.  Here is a definition of faith from my American Heritge College Dictionary:  "faith--1 CONFIDENT BELIEF in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.  2. BELIEF that does not REST ON LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE....." etc. Those are very good definitions of faith, but as one can clearly and instantly see these definitions go totally contrary to the way that the King James defines faith in Heb. 11:2, "Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Hogwash. Faith is the diametric opposite of "evidence and substance."  When one possesses absolute "substance and evidence" regarding any matter, the last thing on earth such a person needs is "faith!"
 
Just days ago I heard Rod Parsley quote that definition of faith from the King James Bible. No wonder they have not a cluse as to anything SPIRITUAL.
 
Now then, faith is a word that has a definite meaning. Muslims have "faith" in Allah, and Christians have "faith" in the "God of Abraham," and some few have "faith" in the Scriptures that tell us how we are to have faith in God.  They are all "faiths" as you suggest, so are they not all the same?  No, of course not. The qauality or kind of faith one has is graded by what that particular faith accomplishes.  Do you rely on the God you have faith in, do you live a godly life because of it, do you love God and all humanity, are you overcoming the sins that God says He hates, etc., etc.?
 
Maybe a "tangible" example will help:
 
Money--you have money and I have money. It all "looks" like the same money.  But one can buy food for his family with his money and another can buy booze with his money and let his family go without. Is there a difference? You bet.
 
Guns--you have gun and I have a gun (both made by the same manufacturer). So our guns are the same, correct? There is no difference in your gun and my gun, correct?  Not at this point, but what do the two guns produce? One man shoots game to feed his family with his gun, while the other SHOOTS HIS FAMILY.  Is there a difference? You bet.
 
James has great and simple wisdom in this matter:  "Even so faith, if it has not works, IS DEAD...Yea a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me YOU faith [this is one kind] without works, and I will show you MY faith [this is a second kind] BY MY WORKS"  (James 2:17-18).
 
Two faiths, two entirely different manifestations of that faith.
 
It's a huge subject and deserves a whole paper on it.
 
God be with you,
Ray


This is a interesting subject and I do understand Dougs point of view. If I have it right, he is saying that even though others faith produces different results such a Muslim, Baptist, or whatever, that the faith they have been given is what causes them to believe in what they do. I once was a Baptist because I had faith to believe for that appointed time. Then I was in with the Non-denomination denomination because I had the faith to believe and believed very strongly such as Dougs Muslim friend that said even if an angel came and told him different he would not change. However, I am on the other side of such words now and can see clear enough that I know that saying I will never change what I believe in is ridiculous. When God moves one to change, one changes!

What are your thoughts on this?

Peace
John

[psalmsinger]

Hello,

Everyone has faith in something.  God has given us all a measure of faith.  I have followed Christ and Christianity since I was a little girl and my measure of faith has grown with every new revelation of Jesus Christ.  I, too found the limited faith of the Baptists, Methodists, WWCOG teachings, and TV ministries.  Now, my faith has expanded to never, ever limit God in any of His power and glory. The foolishness of religion tries to limit God's power, glory love, mercy, grace and salvation to only a few.  In my quest for the truth, religion limited God's salvation  to only Baptists, or protestants, or catholics, or Jews, or the 144,000, or men or white people, the righteous, my righteousness, or just my little group,,,, ad infinitum....... Few really cared about the 95% of humanity that was without that realm of God's salvation. I've noticed in Ray's emails that those who are critics of his teaching on hell usually mention their own "salavation"  and security of not going there, but don't have a conscious compassionate thought about others who they think are doomed to hell.  I have found that every other religion is lacking and void of walking in the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Their faith is inadequate and incomplete without the Love of God and Love of their fellow man that Jesus taught in the Spirit.  God is no respecter of persons and He has a purpose for every one and every event under heaven.  Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.   
Love, Barbara

[John]

  God is no respecter of persons and He has a purpose for every one and every event under heaven. 

That’s my understanding too. God is no respecter of persons, He shows mercy on whom He chooses and no mercy on whom He chooses. Such as just to mention one of the many, Pharaoh. I don’t doubt for a minute that Pharaoh had faith in his gods. He believed and lived in the faith that God gave him to live in. Didn’t matter that it was not the right faith, it was all he knew, all he could understand and reason in, he lived it breathed it and died in it. As is the case with everyone today. Each ones religion or belief is what God intends us to have until He decides to change our minds. I believe that is the point that Doug was trying to make and Ray even agreed that itsa big subject and should have a paper wrote on it.

 
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I think we are all Pharaohs, how do you see it?

Peace,
John

[hillsbororiver]

Hi John,

I can appreciate what you are saying to a certain degree but as far as us being Pharoah I do not see it.

Was Pharoah called to the Lord? Was he chosen? Did he worship the one true God?


Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

12Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Isaiah 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:


Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Acts 4:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

I can't see Pharoah in any of this, God has chosen some vessels to honor, why some over others? I don't know, but it suits His plan and purpose. We must accept this in faith not human reasoning and understanding. All who have ever been born are also in His plan and eventually are brought to Him but not in this age or in this (fleshly) life.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[John]

Hi Joe,

I am guilty of being vague at times. I could have said we are all a Moses instead of Pharaoh, or a Scribe or a Paul it does not matter, any and all of them and us included, have the faith that God has given each of us to live in. I just picked Pharaoh because God made it very clear that He raised him up (Pharaoh) to show His mighty works. Well, does God raise us all up for the same purpose? To show His great works through or in us? Some now and some later, but eventually ALL through faith?  Some where vessels of honor and some dishonor. Some to glory and some to wrath, but all received faith.

Maybe I don’t have a clue about what faith is, and I trust that God will work it out, but isn’t it what we believe?

Peace,
John

[YellowStone]

John wrote:

Maybe I don’t have a clue about what faith is, and I trust that God will work it out, but isn’t it what we believe?
I agree absolutely John

I have always found am interesting paradox between "knowing" and "believing." I always believed in God and had total faith in his existance; however, my faith was limited my understanding, it lack thereof.

To be truthful, I had very little faith in the bible, for 12 men could make it say 12 different things. I agree, faith does not need to be set in concrete, but it cannot be based in shifting sands either.

Faith, is what we set given to believe. My faith is grounded by two Scriptures:

Rom 1:20

• For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jhn 12:47

• And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

I see the love and majestic beauty of God everywhere, everyday. His thoughtfullness continues to amaze and he has promised that he will save even me.

I do not just believe that this will happen, I know it! What more is there?

Well that's my view, comments always welcome.

Love,
Darren

[psalmsinger]

Luke 17:5
5   And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
(KJV)

John 3:30
30   He must increase, but I must decrease.
(KJV)

Thank God for His increase!

Barbara

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe,

I am guilty of being vague at times. I could have said we are all a Moses instead of Pharaoh, or a Scribe or a Paul it does not matter, any and all of them and us included, have the faith that God has given each of us to live in. I just picked Pharaoh because God made it very clear that He raised him up (Pharaoh) to show His mighty works. Well, does God raise us all up for the same purpose? To show His great works through or in us? Some now and some later, but eventually ALL through faith?  Some where vessels of honor and some dishonor. Some to glory and some to wrath, but all received faith.

Maybe I don’t have a clue about what faith is, and I trust that God will work it out, but isn’t it what we believe?

Peace,
John

Good morning John,

If we have been called then our examples are not Pharoah, Moses, Scribes, Pharisees, Paul or any man or woman, our example is Christ. We as newly conceived creatures should not be comparing ourselves to mortal humanity but seek the immortal Spirit of Christ within us. We will not all be called to the same office or receive the same gifts .

We of ourselves are no better than Pharoah, given the same circumstances we all are quite capable of doing any and all of the things he did. Do we contemplate his imperfection to justify our own? Or do we praise God for giving us eyes to see and ears to hear the voice of our Lord and calling us to Him?

We know Christ loved the Pharisees and Scribes, how much of His ministry was devoted to justifying their actions and words? How much of His ministry was devoted to putting their deeds in a positive light or stating there is no difference between who He has chosen and who He has not chosen. The fact of being called (and chosen) is nothing to be puffed up or vain about but should be an extremely humbling revelation.

Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you, if I am I apologize but I do not see the benefit of taking our eyes off of Christ to contemplate any justification of carnal human nature, the ability to forgive and love all of our brethren is also a gift from God, He has chosen who He will give it to at this time but anything else is taking our eyes off of the prize, which is Christ and becoming like Him through the faith He has provided us.

The simple answer to your question or postulation is, yes, the Lord uses all of us for His plan and purpose but only chooses a few to be judged in this life and participate in bringing the rest of His creation to Him in the next.

I believe by virtue of being a "peculiar people" that all are not the same in His eyes.
 
Deu 14:2  For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 
Tit 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

[John]

Maybe I don’t have a clue about what faith is, and I trust that God will work it out, but isn’t it what we believe?

Peace,
John

Thanks for replying everyone, it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, and for now, this matter of understanding FAITH is concealed to me, so I am leaving it be. I am simple, so in keeping with simplicity,

Peace,
John