> Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings
Just Posted - Death: an Encouraging Word.
moseslmpg:
--- Quote from: Kat on December 12, 2007, 05:05:44 PM ---
Hi moseslmpg,
I see this is your first post, welcome to the Bible-Truths forum :)
Jesus compared death to sleep, because as with sleep we are unconscious which means - experiencing loss of senses: unable to see, hear, or otherwise sense what is going on.
But with sleep as you say, you do dream. But with death there is no mind function, as it says here.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing,
--- End quote ---
Thanks, I appreciate the welcome.
Anyway, my problem with this is that while I can concede that when you are asleep your senses are not "working," that doesn't preclude me from dreaming that they are working. It's like the sensation is being bypassed itself and it goes directly to the consciousness that experiences the sensation. I'm sure that the brain is totally dead when you die, and for most people this means absence of consciousness, but I don't think it necessarily means that.
We are all spiritually "asleep" and "dead" in any case, but I think that more spiritually awakened individuals would stay "awake" during death. For instance, there are people who can project their consciousness while they sleep and go to different places in their house while their body is asleep. For the majority of the world, death is just like dreamless sleep because they have not developed enough to be able to stay conscious during the process IMO.
I think that if the metaphor is meant to be taken seriously, that dreaming should be included, are at least not precluded. There is evidence of reincarnation and there are instructions on how to remain conscious during death, but I imagine that these experiences would be attributed to demons (which is another story).
--- Quote ---Here are a few email that Ray has answered concerning death sa sleep and reincarnation.
Dear Randy:
It is not a bother for me to answer your questions.
Reincarnation is a doctrine of demons. God changes us into a new creature, a new creation, but this happens to us as the person we are, not a reincarnated different person.
Dear Walter:
No, there is no such thing as human "reincarnation." Reincarnation is an ancient doctrine of the pagan Egyptians. God knew us from before the foundation of the world, not because we existed back then, but because we were IN HIS PLAN. God knew every person who would ever live, and when they would be born, and how long they would live, how they would live, etc., etc., etc. And He didn't plan for any to perish, but that all will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth (if not in this life, then in Judgment).
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
First of all, I want to say that I don't really see what point Ray is trying to make, and I don't think he really understands reincarnation, no offense meant. In the first e-mail he says that reincarnation (I assume this includes rebirth as well) is a doctrine of demons, but I have yet to see a reason why this is the case. In the second one, he uses the "argument from paganism" or from personal incredulity, and may be even setting up a straw man. I don't mean to attack Ray, but I just don't think this is as solid as some of his other findings. If you have this life and the Judgment, what's wrong with adding a few more in between? It certainly makes the task of learning your lessons and coming into knowledge of God more feasible.
What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.
Edit: Also, the LMPG stands for Let My People Go. I used to use my friends as puppets during lunch to re-enact the Moses story, which is how I got my nickname. I live in Atlanta, GA during breaks and Hamilton, NY during school, but I've lived all around the world.
Craig:
--- Quote ---What I would really like is some verses in the Bible that either preclude reincarnation or condemn it outright as evil. If there are none, then I think it is unreasonable to discount the doctrine based on one's personal belief system. Contrary to popular belief, the Abrahamic religions don't break down if reincarnation is true.
--- End quote ---
I would be lying if I said I didn't consider the validity of reincarnation, but the scripture has no validation for it and though it does not come out and say it is not true there are other scripture that seem to discount it. Ray has touched on these.
Be very careful on what doctrines you want to hang your hat on, I could state vampires are real and I would like some verses in the Bible that either preclude vampirism or condemn it outright as evil. I won't find these verses so I claim it as real? Apply the same logic to aliens, time travel, etc. etc. You see where I'm going. Our ideas can become idols of our hearts. I can't condemn an idea because scripture doesn't speak of it but if I go down that path rather than the path that scripture does speak about, I'm afraid I will miss out on the message that God wants us to strive for, and that is Christ living in us. That is a very hard thing to let happen to us and IMO other ideas only make it harder.
Craig
moseslmpg:
I'm not saying that reincarnation is true because there are no Scriptures that disprove it, but just pointing out that since there are none then one can't say that it is really disproved. It's fair game, or it appears to be so. I'm not trying to get people to change their beliefs, but I think that belief in reincarnation actually might be more helpful for certain people than for others. The idea that you are "chastised" after one life or after 108 doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me.
BTW depends on what you mean by vampires, but I think it would fall under stealing and harming one's health. I personally believe that vampires are just a literalization of certain types of demons, aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it), and time travel is certainly possible but not with any type of machine. I agree that our ideas are idols, but that includes pretty much all of them, especially any ideas of God. But that's the world we live in, and very few people will ever be able to remove these idols (at least in this life).
Out of curiosity, what message that God wants us to strive for does reincarnation obscure? That's basically all I want to know. It doesn't have to be the official position, but just the general Christian idea. Also, could someone give me their understanding of reincarnation? It seems to be a very misunderstood doctrine nowadays. Lastly, how does one explain away the near death experiences where one has been dead for hours, or anecdotal evidence of reincarnation? Again I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to know the arguments for the other side.
Deborah-Leigh:
I do not want to argue for this side or against that side because that is fruitless. Here is what I believe.
The Word of God is the final authority for me.
Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment, 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many ONCE and ONCE FOR ALL, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting HIM.
Religious ideas that strain away from Christ, embrace reincarnation. They look to their formulas and ideas to resolve their imperfections and they invent their illusions to accommodate their beliefs that do not include the sacrifice of Christ. That should clarify this discussion should it not?
1 Tim 6: 20 O Timothy (moseslmpg ) guard and keep the deposit entrusted to you! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the SUBTLETIES and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. 21 For by making such profession some have erred, missed the mark as regards the FAITH. Grace be with you all! Amen so be it.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Kat:
Hi moseslmpg,
I believe the Scripture that Arcturus gave make the idea of reincarnation an impossibility,
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appoint for all men once to die, and after that the judgment,"
I believe we are given this life as an "experience of evil," but not to have this evil experience repeated over and over. That would be a horrible thought.
Ecc 1:13
(CLV) ...it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
(LITV) ...It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.
(NASB) ...It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
(NKJV) ...this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.
(Rotherham) ...is the vexatious employment God hath given to the sons of men, to work toilsomely therein,
Also your idea; aliens most likely do exist (the vastness of the universe coupled with our anthropocentrism points to it),
We have a Scripture for that too.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
I believe this is a indication that there is no other human life. What would be the point in that. This Elect from this human race will be the means by which the "whole creation" shall be "delivered from the bondage of corruption."
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
v. 22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
This is what I see in these Scriptures :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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