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Resurrected Body
Craig:
Try this to understand.
"Great is John the baptist, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
Now we know that John was highly reguarded and a great man on earth, in his carnal, physical body, but those who are born anew with the spirtual body in the kingdom will "all" be greater than John.
"Clear as Mud?" ;D
Craig
Kat:
Hi Craig,
Okay, yes Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets will be in the kingdom, so they would be in the same position as John, this must be speaking about the physical part of the kingdom when it comes to the earth.
Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
eggi:
Good question Kat, I began writing this post thinking that I had everything sorted out, but now after about four hours of reading and researching, I'm still unable to see what is the difference between Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, and the Jews as a whole. I can explain Matthew 8:11 by the difference in timing, but Luke 13:28 shows that there is a difference between Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the rest of the Jews. Or does it? That's what we have to look into...
I'll post what I wrote until I got "stuck" at Luke 13:28.
???
The way I see this is that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets were under the old covenant, and therefore they received not the promise.
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)
Abraham was a man of faith, but he didn't know what his hope was. He didn't know Jesus Christ.
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Gal 3:14-19 KJV)
Paul says in Hebrews 11 that they all (that's all of Israel in the OT, all of them) lived by faith. Because of this they obtained a good report, but they did not receive the promise:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:1-40 KJV)
How can that be? Doesn't that seem unfair, seeing that they did all these things through faith? The only answer is that they didn't keep it spiritually, and therefore, they were not Christ's:
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29 KJV)
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Rom 7:14 KJV)
So, when will the heirs of the promise from the OT receive the promise?
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. (Eze 16:55 KJV)
Then what about Matthew 8:11?
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:10-12 KJV)
The question is, when does this happen, to who, and in what order? They will all eventually be in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness. Just because Jesus says: [...] and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, does that mean that Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, are already there? Apparently not:
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 KJV)
And what about Luke 13:28:
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. (Luk 13:28-29 KJV)
Now... What about Luke 13:28?
eggi:
I found this in the email section, and maybe it can shed some light on this discussion:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,973.0.html
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Kat
You quote two scriptures : Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.
Here are my thoughts: Some of us will sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob (Matt 8:11) and some of us will be thrust out (Luke 13:28)
Mtt 8 this refers to the Centurion who considered himself unworthy to receive Jesus into his home yet he acknowledged Jesus for His authority with respect for Jesus and honor for His Name. Jesus marveled at the faith of the Centurion and said in reference to the CENTURION vs 10 I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel.
It was to such as the Centurion that Jesus said that many like the Centurion, shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven.
In the second scripture Luke 13 this is with reference to those who upon resurrection are found to be unlike the Centurion because they consider themselves worthy through works and imagined fellowship with Christ. The have the audacity to say to the King of Kings vs. 26 We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets. They are arrogant and ask why they are not permitted into the Kingdom which is quite unlike the attitude portrayed by the Centurion. To them Jesus says vs 27 I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from Me all you wrongdoers!
After resurrection, what will the attitude be of them who do good works and consider themselves worthy of Christ. Where will the self righteous Pharisee go?
The Hebrew children were the FIRST to be selected by divine election. Rom 11 : 25 Lest you be self-opinionated, I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren; a hardening has befallen part of Israel until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved.
They who are first (OT) will be last…...to be saved.
Who are the last? The NT children of the promise who are dragged out of Mystery Babylon and who are receiving judgment now. They are last in the time line and will be first in the Kingdom. This time line is in Matt 20 : 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Which children will gnash their teeth? Mystery Babylon does not only have its presence in the NT. Its roots are in the OT. The OT Pharisees and the Scribes who Jesus called snakes and hypocrites and white washed sepulchers are the roots to the NT leadership in Christendom.
Matt 13 : 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense, persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin, and all who do iniquity and act wickedly. 42. And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth.
The key is the return of Christ and the Resurrection. When Abraham Isaac and the faithful prophets are woken, they will see, believe and rejoice. They will receive the promise and be grafted into the tree of life again and restored. Rom 11 : 2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people whose destiny He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?3. Lord, they have killed Your prophets; they have demolished Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life. 4. But what is God’s reply to him? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal!
When the Centurion is resurrected will he not worship honor and obey? Yet when the present day Church leadership are resurrected will they not expect to be honored worshiped and obeyed and instead be cast out into the outer darkness where they will weep and gnash their teeth.
The return of Christ is the great equalizer. Only once Christ returns then Matt 13 : 42 THEN will the righteous, those who are upright and in right standing with God, shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Then we shall see Abraham Isaac etc…
All will be saved but some will have to gnash their teeth first in outer darkness.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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